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<H1>Re: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:56:51 -0800</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:11:09 -0500
Travis Casey <efindel#io,com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 1999, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:53:12 -0500 Travis Casey <efindel#io,com>
>> wrote:
>>> Has it? You keep bringing up UOL as an example of this, but
>>> their formulas are rather simple, and they expose many numbers
>>> to the players.
>> I quote UOL as one of the better documented examples.
>> Additionally, for some of the tables that have been derived (and
>> this can be extrapolated all the way down to the reverse
>> engineering of the UOL client protocols and data structures)
>> considerable empiracle work was required to go as far as they
>> did. Yes, UOL provided an easy initial start, but I don't see
>> that this minimises the the magnitude of the actual work done.
> I think the thing that tweaks me isn't your raising UOL as an
> example, but the way in which you raise it (or, I should say, the
> way that it seems to me). It seems to me that you raise it not as
> a "think carefully about how much work you want to put into this
> -- it may take much more than you think" warning, but as a "this
> won't work".
Uurk. Guilty (I assume). That impression would not be my intention
and would not be good. (BTW: We're in violent agreement about the
lock picking/timing stuff).
>> While I can't give an example, I also recall seeing traffic in
>> RGM* reverse engineering the apparent base formulae for MUDs
>> which hid the numbers behind cute phrases.
> If they're doing a one-to-one mapping of numbers to phrases, like
> the paper RPGs FUDGE and MSH (the original, not advanced MSH),
> then it wouldn't be too hard. I'm thinking more in terms of
> many-to-one mappings of "real" numbers to displayed values.
My recollection was a mapping of numeric ranges to phrases.
Trivially more difficult at the very worst.
>>> To my knowledge, no mud has yet tried hidden numbers and
>>> deliberately obscured formulas -- and while it makes no sense to
>>> assume that such an attempt would be 100% successful, it also
>>> makes no sense to assume that it would be 100% unsuccessful.
>> True. However given a successful game (commercially, or of a
>> player base size sufficient to represent a commercially
>> successful game), it appears reasonable to assume that such an
>> attempt would be successful.
> However, not everyone wants to have a game of such magnitude. For
> those interested in smaller playerbases, and especially those more
> focused on roleplaying (who are less likely to attract large
> numbers of players, and whose players are arguably less likely to
> be interested in such number-crunching), such solutions might
> still be attractive.
<nod>
Another assumption skewered.
> The system might either lie about attribute values or might
> "scale" them differently for different characters. For example, a
> mud using textual descriptions might describe a human's strength
> as being "excellent" -- but that might be weaker than an ogre with
> "fair" strength, because the descriptions are scaled by race.
Or you could get really nasty and use the experiental based scaling
for perceived stats I proposed a while back.
> This is just a sampling of ideas -- there are many more
> possibilities, I'm sure. The point is that if you want to obscure
> how the system works from players, there are many ways to do it.
> Whether the effort is worth it, but in terms of effort and likely
> player annoyance, is something that different mud designers will
> have to answer for themselves.
Sooth.
--
J C Lawrence Home: claw#kanga,nu
----------(*) Other: coder#kanga,nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--
_______________________________________________
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<li><strong><A NAME="00775" HREF="msg00775.html">Re: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00733" HREF="msg00733.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> J C Lawrence <claw@cp.net></LI></UL></LI>
<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00754" HREF="msg00754.html">Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Travis Casey <efindel@io.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00735" HREF="msg00735.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@cp.net">claw@cp.net</a>, Wed 22 Dec 1999, 23:16 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00733" HREF="msg00733.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@cp.net">claw@cp.net</a>, Wed 22 Dec 1999, 23:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00744" HREF="msg00744.html">RE: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
Joe Andrieu <a href="mailto:joe@andrieu.net">joe@andrieu.net</a>, Thu 23 Dec 1999, 00:45 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00754" HREF="msg00754.html">Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel@io.com">efindel@io.com</a>, Thu 23 Dec 1999, 05:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00759" HREF="msg00759.html">Re: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@kanga.nu">claw@kanga.nu</a>, Thu 23 Dec 1999, 07:56 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00775" HREF="msg00775.html">Re: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@kanga.nu">claw@kanga.nu</a>, Thu 23 Dec 1999, 20:09 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00779" HREF="msg00779.html">Re: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam@angel.com">adam@angel.com</a>, Thu 23 Dec 1999, 23:44 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00671" HREF="msg00671.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
Raph & Kristen Koster <a href="mailto:koster@eden.com">koster@eden.com</a>, Sat 18 Dec 1999, 17:52 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00648" HREF="msg00648.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] The grass is always greener in the other field</A></strong>,
Sellers, Michael <a href="mailto:MSellers@maxis.com">MSellers@maxis.com</a>, Fri 17 Dec 1999, 23:00 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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