<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: FW: Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject) -->
<!--X-From-R13: "Ybfgre, Dncu" <exbfgreNbevtva.rn.pbz> -->
<!--X-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:42:31 -0800 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: 11A17AA2B9EAD111BCEA00A0C9B4179303D6DF19@molach.origin.ea.com -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, FW: Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:rkoster@origin.ea.com">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00476.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00477.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00471.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00487.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00474">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00474">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00474">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>FW: Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: FW: Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Koster, Raph" <<A HREF="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:01:21 -0600</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
I think Travis meant this for the list...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Travis Casey [<A HREF="mailto:efindel#io,com">mailto:efindel#io,com</A>]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:30 PM
> To: Koster#kanga,nu; Raph
> Subject: Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 23, 1999, Koster, Raph wrote:
>
> > Hate to disagree with ya, Travis, but... I disagree with ya. ;)
>
> >> All this was within 6 years of D&D's publication. It's now been 25
> >> years -- and the RPG "state of the art" has advanced such
> that someone
> >> who introduced an RPG like the original D&D today would be
> laughed at
> >> by most paper RPG gamers.
>
> > It's worth noting that all of those other ones were, with
> the exception of
> > the White Wolf stuff, comemrcial failures and are now dead
> and gone except
> > in an extreme niche. To this day, the majority of gamers
> who have tried a
> > paper RPG, play D&D or AD&D. Worth arguing about why (eg,
> marketing had a
> > lot to do with it?), but to my mind, you have to
> acknowledge this fact
> > before bemoaning the lack of variety in muds.
>
> [Cutting almost everything because I think Raph missed what I was
> trying to do.]
>
> I'm not "bemoaning" anything. And I agree with you that most paper
> RPGs were commercial failures outside of a small niche. And I also
> agree that other analogies can be drawn to muds which would indicate
> that they would not branch out in variety. However, none of these
> have anything to do with what I was trying to do.
>
> Quite simply, I didn't agree with Marian's reasoning as to *why* a
> wider variety of mud game designs haven't proliferated. I agree that
> they haven't, and that they most likely won't, and gave a list of
> things that I believe are likely factors in the post I sent out today.
>
> >> What's the difference here? Why did paper RPGs explode in
> different
> >> directions so much faster than muds? Well.... I have a
> few thoughts,
> >> but the clock is ringing midnight here, and I have to go to work in
> >> the morning. More later.
> >
> > IMHO, paper RPGing IMploded. What got mainstreamed was only
> D&D, and later
> > on, the Storyteller system. To think otherwise betrays, to
> my mind, someone
> > who is too close to the papergaming world to think otherwise.
>
> In market share for non-D&D RPGs, it imploded, yes -- but that's not
> what I was talking about. The RPG world *exploded* in variety of game
> designs and genres tried, compared to the way muds have developed.
> I'm not saying that that's bad, or that mud developers are uncreative
> -- only that I think that's true because of the different
> circumstances in which muds exist, not because people wouldn't
> recognize a mud with a different underlying game system as being a
> mud.
>
> > The mud world is *fortunate* that there are as many viable
> paradigms as
> > there are. Talker, full-immersion roleacting MUSH, user-crafted MOO,
> > academic MOO, goal-oriented PvEnvironment mud, player-vs-player mud,
> > quest-driven adventure game mud, full-on virtual world.
> That's a nice array.
> > Certainly there are more types remaining to be developed
> more fully, but
> > let's not be dismissive of what we have.
>
> I'll note that these are more analogous to paper RPG campaign types
> than game systems -- which is in keeping with my comparison of
> individual muds to gaming groups rather than games in the second half
> of my post.
>
> --
> |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com>
> ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MUD-Dev maillist - MUD-Dev#kanga,nu
> <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A>
>
_______________________________________________
MUD-Dev maillist - MUD-Dev#kanga,nu
<A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A>
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>:
<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00487" HREF="msg00487.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Travis S. Casey" <efindel@io.com></li></ul>
</UL></LI></UL>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00476.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Admins as Mortals twist</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00477.html">RE: Re[5]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00471.html">Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00487.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00474"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00474"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00482" HREF="msg00482.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@cp.net">claw@cp.net</a>, Wed 24 Nov 1999, 19:27 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00451" HREF="msg00451.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel@io.com">efindel@io.com</a>, Mon 22 Nov 1999, 20:25 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00468" HREF="msg00468.html">RE: Re[4]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster@origin.ea.com">rkoster@origin.ea.com</a>, Tue 23 Nov 1999, 21:24 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00471" HREF="msg00471.html">Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel@io.com">efindel@io.com</a>, Wed 24 Nov 1999, 02:49 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00474" HREF="msg00474.html">FW: Re[6]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster@origin.ea.com">rkoster@origin.ea.com</a>, Wed 24 Nov 1999, 06:42 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00487" HREF="msg00487.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel@io.com">efindel@io.com</a>, Wed 24 Nov 1999, 20:15 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00477" HREF="msg00477.html">RE: Re[5]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster@origin.ea.com">rkoster@origin.ea.com</a>, Wed 24 Nov 1999, 06:44 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00488" HREF="msg00488.html">RE: Re[5]: [MUD-Dev] (no subject)</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel@io.com">efindel@io.com</a>, Wed 24 Nov 1999, 20:15 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00399" HREF="msg00399.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Player statistics calculation</A></strong>,
B. Schulte <a href="mailto:bs@hamburg.roses.de">bs@hamburg.roses.de</a>, Fri 19 Nov 1999, 18:26 GMT
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>