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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game" </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#cp,net">claw#cp,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:23:42 -0800</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:26:11 -0800 (PST)
Matthew Mihaly <diablo#best,com> wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:08:13 -0800 Daniel James <dan#thecan,org>
>> wrote:
> Well, when the admins do nothing to stomp on the sort of problem
> player we are talking about (ie ooc jerks) then the emnity WILL
> end up on the admins, as they are shirking their duty to the
> world. If you run an rpg, people who are obnoxious out of role
> simply have no place.
I'm going to ignore the RP aspects of this debate as it is not a
value system I know well.
I advocate a different style of game operation:
The admins responsible for ensuring the logical consistency and
mechanical functioning of the game world. Period. Players are
responsible for all social structures, conflict resolution and
behaviour. Admins and Imps have no business or reason to operate in
that space.
Now this is not to say that an Imp cannot implement mechanical
functions in the game world which support a particular social
formation or behaviour. Just that it then up to players to elect
whether or not, and how to use that feature.
>> This I think is the real goal. Back when (Jan/Feb of this year)
>> Raph and I talked (phone call) of how to design and implement
>> player defined legal systems and justice enforcement systems.
>> The basic idea which I was pursueing was:
>>
>> -- A player or group of players claim title to a geographical
>> area of the game world.
>>
>> -- They then define a legal system for that area (in essence the
>> justice process).
>>
>> -- Next comes "law" definition. What is proscribed, for whom?
>>
>> -- Lastly comes implementation (manufacture, placement,
>> maintenence etc) of detection equipment (something has to twll
>> you a crime has been committed).
>>
>> >From players defined by the justice process in the "guild" (for
>> want of a better term) would receive alerts of detected crimes,
>> and the process would roll into effect from there in a rather
>> hands off manner. Players would be responsible for application
>> and enforcement, but the system would take much of the load of
>> detection and reporting.
> Sure, we do all of this already, aside from the automatic
> detection. (actually, we do have some automatic punishemnts. If
> someone influential in a city declares you an enemy of that city,
> a couple different automated defences will attack you whenever you
> are in that city (telepaths, archers, etc)).
Okay, let's clarify here:
I can log on, get together with a couple mates, define ourselves
as the sole members of a new society which we define, go out in the
boonies and declare some area our new empire, write a set of laws of
our devising and capriciousness in respect to our society and which
will only be applied to interactions with members of our society,
define a justice process as ludicrous and impractical as we may care
for that society, and then enact them -- all without ever requiring
the presence or cooperation of an admin in any regard?
> Basically, the problem I see with formally instituting detection
> methods is that very very few crimes can be automatically
> detected. For instance, let's say the law is: No murdering of
> innocents. How is the system to define innocents?
Quite. The problem is that the implied "innocent" adjective is a
subjective definition. The mirror problem is that requiring rules
based on absolute terms only invites manipulation of the absolutes
in question.
> Or what if the law is that one may not attack a fellow citizen
> unless that citizen has insulted your honour first.
Another subjectively defined adjective.
> I don't see how a system can be coded to automatically detect such
> things. The rulers of most of our guilds and cities have written
> up codes, but just like in real life, events are never black and
> white.
Which is why you retain the ability for the members of a society to
report violations of that societies rules. This has the added and
not insignificant benefit of allowing false accusations, threats of
accusation, framing of the accused, etc.
> That's why human judges exist.
Yup, thus my justice system.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw#kanga,nu
----------(*) Internet: coder#kanga,nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
_______________________________________________
MUD-Dev maillist - MUD-Dev#kanga,nu
<A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00189" HREF="msg00189.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matthew Mihaly <diablo#best,com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00157" HREF="msg00157.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Matthew Mihaly <diablo#best,com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00175" HREF="msg00175.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#cp,net">claw#cp,net</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 19:41 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00184" HREF="msg00184.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 20:25 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00187" HREF="msg00187.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#cp,net">claw#cp,net</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 20:56 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00190" HREF="msg00190.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 21:46 GMT
</LI>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00183" HREF="msg00183.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#cp,net">claw#cp,net</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 20:23 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00189" HREF="msg00189.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 21:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00192" HREF="msg00192.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] players who "take away from the game"</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#cp,net">claw#cp,net</a>, Wed 10 Nov 1999, 22:20 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00127" HREF="msg00127.html">[MUD-Dev] A simple plan for establishing a history.</A></strong>,
Aaron <a href="mailto:silrathi#harbornet,com">silrathi#harbornet,com</a>, Fri 05 Nov 1999, 19:04 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00126" HREF="msg00126.html">[MUD-Dev] META: Successor to FAQ Maintainer</A></strong>,
Lo, Kam <a href="mailto:LoK#logica,com">LoK#logica,com</a>, Fri 05 Nov 1999, 19:04 GMT
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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