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<H1>[MUD-Dev] FW: [MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] FW: [MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Peck, Matthew x96724c1" <<A HREF="mailto:x96724#exmail,usma.army.mil">x96724#exmail,usma.army.mil</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:18:39 -0400</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
> From: Andy Cink[SMTP:ranthor#earthlink,net]
> At 10:55 AM 9/25/98 -0700, "S. Patrick Gallaty" wrote:
> >
> >Stop!
> >The 'leveling' concept amonst adventuring muds is a
> >tried and true concept. You are doing what UO did, imo
> >which is to confuse playability. There's a very good reason
> >why levels and level concepts work, and that simply is
> >because it's an unambiguous marker of accomplishment.
>
> If everyone stuck to the tried and true concepts:
> A) Very few of us would still be on mud-dev
> B) There would be little in the way of innovation in muds
>
> Level is really just a stereotype. Stereotypes make our
> lives easier, it helps us "understand" other people with
> a minimum of expended effort. If you type who and see
> "Bob is level 15" and you know it's a 50 level mud, you
> have a good idea who Bob is already. You know where Bob
> stands in relation to you. You know if Bob could likely
> kill you or not in battle. This is a powerful advantage.
>
>
> I personally prefer to take levels off of the who list. That way you
> still know who is on, but not what their capabilities are, unless you
> have met them already. But I disagree with the stereotype comment.
> They are not a stereotype, they are a model for adventurers. I'm sure
> that you also have some model by which players gain abilities.
>
> Further which, you have a clearly defined "end" to the
> game. I always hated the end of a "career" on a mud that
> I liked to play. It does give a sense of accomplishment,
> but then again.. what have you REALLY accomplished? The
> next time they do a file wipe it counts for jack anyways.
>
>
> For many players, gaining levels is the end. All they really desire
> is recognition. There are no concrete rewards for leveling, no real
> life prizes. It just makes them feel good to be above someone else.
>
> So what it boils down to, is that level is really just a
> way to measure progress along a continuum. Wouldn't it be
> more fun to have a large continuum, with slow continual
> progression and lots to do in the meantime? Relative
> power levels are all that really matter anyways, right?
> If a level 15 can kill a lizardman, and my levelless char
> on a levelless mud can kill a lizardman.. then what is the
> difference?
>
> It seems to me reliance on level is just sort of a
> carryover from old muds and AD&D. I know on my mud,
> I've fought major wars with the immortal staff over
> doing away with experience points and levels. I still
> don't quite understand their totally irrational FEAR of
> not having levels anymore. It's like a psychological
> dependence, or something.
>
>
> I have a question for you, did you get rid of hit points as well? Is
> there some method for your players to gain them as they proceed down
> the course of the game? If not, how do you explain that a person who
> has just started has x number of hitpoints, where a player who has
> been there a week has 3x hitpoints? When I think about hitpoints, the
> concept seems absurd. The ability for certain people to take more
> damage than others simply doesn't exist (for the most part) in the
> world. Granted, some people (boxers and the like) can take large
> amounts of physical abuse. However, there are limits to that. And a
> gunshot to the head will kill the boxer just as much as a "normal"
> person. This gunshot does the same amount of damage to both, so where
> do hit points come in?
>
> Before you or anyone explains to me the necessity of hit points, allow
> me to explain my own position. My mud has both levels and hitpoints.
> I consider both to be models used to simplify "real" behaviors. For
> example, a person who is level 10 might have twice the number of hit
> points as a person at level 1. I explain this to myself by saying
> that the level 10 person really can't take more physical damage than
> the level 1, but he is simply more adept at handling himself to
> minimize the effects of a blow. So while a thief's backstab might
> kill a level 1 person, the level 10 person (since knows more about
> fighting) might have heard a pebble kicked behind him and turned in
> such a way as to cause the blow to be less damaging. It is easier to
> do it that way, in my opinion, than to have blows do less damage as
> the victims level increases. (fractional hit point loss, etc.)
>
> Levels are the same way. A person who is level 10 will have a
> generally more alert stance than a level 1 person, allowing him to do
> more with the same abilities. So he might hit harder, ride a horse
> better, etc., than the poor newbie. Going back to my example with the
> gunshot to the head. Someone of high enough level could theoretically
> judge that someone with a gun aimed at them is about to shoot (seeing
> their stance, seeing the muscles tighten on their hand) and take
> steps to evade, allowing him to survive a gunshot.
>
> I consider hit points, levels, and all those other things to be
> abstractions. They don't exist in real life, but they make the lives
> of many people easier. It also gives the players a sense of
> accomplishment. People can point to certain benchmarks of their
> character and know that they are getting somewhere. When I play a
> mortal character, I become heavily involved in role-play, to the
> extent where I will not step out of character to fight a mob I know
> has something I want or can give me some experience. Yet, I still
> find gaining levels to be strangely satisfying and rewarding.
>
> I would like to point out that I have nothing against level-less MUDs.
> If you can come up with some kind of model that allows people who are
> generally more wise in the ways of the world to have greater
> abilities, then more power to you. But for me, they make my life
> easier, so I retain them. and the end result is nearly the same. A
> level 50 person can still kill a level 15 person (under normal
> conditions) and someone on a level -less mud who has spent time
> developing their character can still kill a newbie. Its just a matter
> of what you prefer.
>
>
> Matthew Peck
> No Homepage to speak of
> x96724#exmail,usma.edu or valatar#mb2,betterbox.net
>
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<li><strong><A NAME="01248" HREF="msg01248.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Andy Cink <ranthor#earthlink,net></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Unix is a mud (Re: Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01314" HREF="msg01314.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Unix is a mud (Re: Ugh, IS Diablo a mud?)</A></strong>,
Jon Leonard <a href="mailto:jleonard#divcom,slimy.com">jleonard#divcom,slimy.com</a>, Sun 27 Sep 1998, 19:54 GMT
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<LI><strong><A NAME="01269" HREF="msg01269.html">[MUD-Dev] MCP/2.1 client-server message protocol...</A></strong>,
Andrew Wilson <a href="mailto:andrew#aaaaaaaa,demon.co.uk">andrew#aaaaaaaa,demon.co.uk</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 17:42 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="01257" HREF="msg01257.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: FPL: Another embeddable bytecoded scripting language</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 06:09 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01265" HREF="msg01265.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: FPL: Another embeddable bytecoded scripting language</A></strong>,
The Arrow <a href="mailto:arrow#trelleborg,mail.telia.com">arrow#trelleborg,mail.telia.com</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 15:54 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01242" HREF="msg01242.html">[MUD-Dev] FW: [MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</A></strong>,
Peck, Matthew x96724c1 <a href="mailto:x96724#exmail,usma.army.mil">x96724#exmail,usma.army.mil</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 02:14 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01248" HREF="msg01248.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</A></strong>,
Andy Cink <a href="mailto:ranthor#earthlink,net">ranthor#earthlink,net</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 03:51 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01251" HREF="msg01251.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</A></strong>,
James Wilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 04:39 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01252" HREF="msg01252.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</A></strong>,
Matthew R. Sheahan <a href="mailto:chaos#crystal,palace.net">chaos#crystal,palace.net</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 04:47 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01254" HREF="msg01254.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: let's call it a spellcraft</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Sat 26 Sep 1998, 05:45 GMT
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