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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:24:41 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
In <URL:<A HREF="news:local.muddev">news:local.muddev</A>> on Wed 19 Aug, Scatter wrote:
> Marian's Tailor Problem seems to me to be a case of "how do we enable
> Buffy to prevent Bubba ruining her fun without ruining Bubba's fun when
> both players are enacting different but valid facets of the game?"
I actually was more concerned with how to prevent the fighter spoiling
the fun of the tailor without forcing the tailor to become a fighter in
the process.
> For the case in point, Buffy enjoys role-playing a tailor in a medieval
> setting. Bubba enjoys role-playing a strong fighter in a medieval setting.
> I'm assuming both Bubba and Buffy are valued players (i.e. you don't
> particularly want either of them quit) and that you don't want to
> drop either facet of the game (tailoring or fighting).
Belief it or not, but the medieval times were only as dangerous as the
average mud in the fantasy of the players. People died early from a lot
of causes, but rarely from combat. Violence-wise those times were pro-
bably safer than our current time. Unless you happened to get in the
way of a religious conflict, or were unlucky enough your farm stood in
the way of an advancing army of fifty knights and their assorted troops
but both chances were negliciable compared to the chance that you got a
fatal disease, or your scythe slipped and cut of your leg.
> There are certain stipulations in that medieval setting though. By
> chosing to play a mud with a medieval setting, Buffy has chosen to
> allow medieval-type things to happen to her. Presumably if she wanted
> to play in a safe environment, she wouldn't be playing a mud that
> didn't provide one in the first place. So, I assume that her choice
> to play in a mud where player vs. player combat is unrestricted means
> that she has no objection to player vs. player combat involving her
> provided that said combat is appropriate to the setting (e.g. she
> insulted the head of the local thieves guild).
This is were I strongly disagree and why I asked the question that is
now referred to as 'Marian's tailor problem'. The fact that I chose a
medieval setting for a mud has nothing whatshowever to do with if I
want a safe or dangerous environment. I am not talking about roleplay
(acting) games but at a ultima like game where I can chose not to be
a fighter.
> Heading back to the Tailor Problem, Buffy is running her little tailor
> shop quite happily and in walks Bubba. He kills her easily, raids her
> shop for loot and departs.
That is pretty much the problem. Or rather. How does the game attempt
to protect her from this kind of thing.
> There's now a question of motivation -
> there may nothing wrong with this if it is valid, in-theme, in-character
> roleplay - for example if Buffy had previously done something to insult
> Bubba or one of his friends or followers and Bubba was exacting revenge.
I think being killed is rather a extreme reaction to a result. And she
has justified reasons for being upset about the whole affair. More re-
alistically however is that Bubba just came in because he felt like it
> If it's simply Bubba being a vile idiot and harrassing Buffy for
> out-of-character reasons, then Buffy should be able to file OOC
> complaints and there should be OOC methods of punishing Bubba.
Yup.
> I think the core of the tailor problem is in the valid, in-character
> motivations, because these require game-world mechanisms and can't
> be dismissed so easily.
The IC motivations already are suspect if the attacker forces -his-
playing on somebody else who may not be interested in it. -He- feels
that he is roleplaying properly but the tailor still feels her game
is ruined. She has neither the skill nor the motivation to prevent
this kind of things from happening and frankly I strongly believe it
is not -her- job to prevent it anyway.
> Buffy wants to be a tailor, happily designing and selling clothes. It
> might be valid roleplay for Bubba to turn regularly on destroy and loot
> missions.
Perhaps, but that leaves the victims of his valid roleplay with a big
problem does it not?
> What in-character, in-setting methods can be put in place
> that will allow Buffy respite from such attacks without requiring her
> to become a tougher fighter than Bubba?
> (I don't consider the options of simply blocking player-killing and
> player-stealing because they are out-of-character, artificial methods
> which block valid roleplay situations.
Actually I would not since they obviously work. Leaving only the inten-
tional harassment to be dealt with.
> Besides, as I mentioned above,
> Buffy has specificly chosen to play her tailor on a mud that
> allows this sort of thing rather than on a "safe" mud.)
I honestly do not see this as a justification for attacking anybody.
> So, what mechanisms could/should be implemented to enable Buffy to
> protect herself from attack?
> Buffy could hire a guard to protect her shop. Of course this would
> require that the shop make enough money to pay the guard, and that
> the guard is tough enough to be a deterrent for Bubba. Depending on
> setting details, she may be able to hire a mage to protect her
> shop and property with various spells.
I think this is something the game should do automatically. Being a
tailor is fun but running an actual business just so you can run a
shop may not be that much fun, especially if this is drudge work you
have to do because there is no other way to protect you from others.
I do admit however that this is a weak argument.
> Or indeed she may be able to
> draw on player friends to do these tasks for her, for free. This
> could be a problem when she's just starting out and doesn't know
> anybody and/or can't afford much.
The problem is aggravated by the fact that the would be attacker has
very little to lose in a fight but the tailor will lose a lot.
> In-theme law can be used to discourage such attacks on good citizens
> of the city. Bubba might have a valid roleplay grudge against Buffy
> but he's also much less likely to carry out an attack in a place where
> guards are likely to respond quickly to disturbances and punishments
> for crimes are strong enough to deter.
Which still means less to Bubba than it means to his victims. A new
fighter character is easier to create than building up a social net-
work that is needed to play a tailor.
> In a medieval setting, the
> penalty for murder is likely to be execution - the possible penalties
> involved in death could potentially be more detrimental to a fighter
> than to a tailor (e.g. stat reductions are common).
Seeing that the fighter can easily create an entirely new character but
that Buffy must play on with her own character (that still could die a
lot because of all these attacks on her shop) this may easily be worse
for the victims than for the attackers.
> Consider also
> banishment from the city - leaving Bubba bereft of the support the
> city provides (this requires that the city provide something of
> value to Bubba in the first place). The point here is that in a
> "civilised" city such as one in which tailoring is a valid business
> occupation needs to provide legislative measures that protect the
> businesses from attack. Similarly, a more feudal environment like
> a being tailor to a Lord in his castle should bestow the Lord's
> protection on the tailor.
> Another good social mechanism is things like clans, secret societies
> and the like. Buffy is a member of the Chain Clan so an attack upon
> Buffy is considered an attack upon the Clan and the Clan will therefore
> enact terrible revenge upon the perpetrator. This may depend upon
> Buffy's value to the Clan of course. Other forms of revenge may also
> be possible - what if there are assassins available who could be
> contracted by Buffy to kill Bubba? If he fears this sort of reprisal
> he will be less likely to carry out the attack in the first place.
I agree that the only real solution can be found through social mech-
anmisms. And I also think that something must be done to give these a
chance to form in the online community. In a free for all situation
there is no real hope fo a society forming.
> There is a compromise here in how much this restricts Bubba's enjoyment
> of being a thug and killing who he pleases.
Since his play has the tendency to annoy a number of players entirely
out of proportion to his enjoyment I tend to think not much concern is
needed for this kind of players.
> I think that as long as your game and setting allow a certain style
> of play, and there is an element of realism in that style of play
> then you need to make sure that the setting is realised in sufficient
> detail that the style of play in question is rewarding. That means
> providing appropriate social measures to protect certain play styles
> from being overly spoiled by other play styles but at the same time
> it means making sure that those other play styles are still enjoyable
> even with those measures in place. The only other choice is to drop
> one or other style completely.
Which still leaves the question: How do you arrange this?
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00798" HREF="msg00798.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Brandon J. Rickman" <ashes#pc4,zennet.com></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00772" HREF="msg00772.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
James Wilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 23:20 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00774" HREF="msg00774.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Damion Schubert <a href="mailto:zjiria#texas,net">zjiria#texas,net</a>, Wed 19 Aug 1998, 06:10 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00775" HREF="msg00775.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Wed 19 Aug 1998, 07:45 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00776" HREF="msg00776.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Scatter <a href="mailto:scatter#thevortex,com">scatter#thevortex,com</a>, Wed 19 Aug 1998, 10:50 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00777" HREF="msg00777.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Wed 19 Aug 1998, 19:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00798" HREF="msg00798.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Brandon J. Rickman <a href="mailto:ashes#pc4,zennet.com">ashes#pc4,zennet.com</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 21:34 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00846" HREF="msg00846.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 03:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00916" HREF="msg00916.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Brandon J. Rickman <a href="mailto:ashes#pc4,zennet.com">ashes#pc4,zennet.com</a>, Thu 03 Sep 1998, 02:05 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00850" HREF="msg00850.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: UBE/high: Re: FW: UBE/high: Re: W IRED: Kilers</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 04:09 GMT
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