<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models --> <!--X-From-R13: Xbry Yryfb <wbryNrr.hjn.rqh.nh> --> <!--X-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:14:04 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 35FDBFC9.52B91BEE#ee,uwa.edu.au --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 98091318192402.04290@d185d1e96 --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:joel#ee,uwa.edu.au"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01045.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01047.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01040.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01047.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01046">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01046">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01046">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Joel Kelso <<A HREF="mailto:joel#ee,uwa.edu.au">joel#ee,uwa.edu.au</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:15:53 +0800</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> James Wilson wrote: > Hi all, I've been thinking about how one might use cellular > automata to model a universe. By 'cellular automata', I mean a > set of nodes where a given node's state changes are completely > determined by a set of neighboring nodes. (The research community > uses the term a little more carefully than I do. Purists, please forgive > my insolence.) Have you read "Permutation City" by Greg Egan ? <snipped design bits for cellular-automata based MUD> > As a 'realism' constraint, there is a real-world parallel; namely, information > and thus causality cannot propagate faster than the speed of light, so there > is no instantaneous causality across remote areas of space. (Quantum > correspondences don't let you out of this either, unfortunately, but that's > highly OT. *heh*) Perhaps one could loosen the correspondence between > spatial locations and nodes - allowing mobile nodes, wormholes, dynamic > changes to the node graph, and the like - without breaking the underlying > synchronization model. If you disallow non-local access, you might get another advantage: the abilityto simply partition the processesing for your world onto multiple processors. Inter-process communication occurs only at well-defined boundaries (although you could shift the boundaries dynamically to do load balancing), and by a well-defined protocols. Just a thought. > To be perverse: at one extreme, each object could be a single mobile node, > but this would obviate any gains realized by serializing groups of spatially > local objects, and seriously complicate the process by which events inspect > their environment.. At the other extreme, nodes could be so large that > serialization of their state changes would be tantamount to serializing the > whole db, which of course is an option but one I am interested in avoiding. > The useful case is where nodes are large enough to conveniently serialize > db state changes while not terribly inconveniencing script writers. > > The node and its neighbors would have to be understood as the 'environment' > available to an event, and script writers would need to work under the > assumption that information from outside this local environment is unavailable. > This is essentially the same constraint that human users of VR environments > (and real world systems) operate under; that is, one's responses are determined > by one's internal logic (mind, instincts, physical laws, etc) and one's > immediate environment (through sensory data or physical interactions). I'm not > sure how this constraint could translate into a scripting system, however. One > would need to remove direct references and proxy all object accesses through > the environment; how could this be done efficiently? I have to admit that when I first read you post I thought: "what do CA have to dowith MUDs ?" ... but the possible serialisation and parallelisation advantages of a cellular world with no non-local references really make this worth thinking about. Joel Kelso -- joel#ee,uwa.edu.au -------------------------------------- "... great Scott, he's turned into _more than one person_ !" "Well, there was always enough of him." - the Goon Show -- <A HREF="http://ciips.ee.uwa.edu.au/~joel">http://ciips.ee.uwa.edu.au/~joel</A> ------------------------ </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="01047" HREF="msg01047.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> James Wilson <jwilson#rochester,rr.com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01040" HREF="msg01040.html">[MUD-Dev] cellular automata as universe models</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> James Wilson <jwilson#rochester,rr.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01045.html">[MUD-Dev] Off-topic! Re: Off-topic! Re: Windows->Linux TCP/IP stack performance problems</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01047.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01040.html">[MUD-Dev] cellular automata as universe models</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01047.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01046"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01046"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01090" HREF="msg01090.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marian's Tailor vs. Psychopaths</A></strong>, Jo Dillon <a href="mailto:emily#thelonious,new.ox.ac.uk">emily#thelonious,new.ox.ac.uk</a>, Tue 22 Sep 1998, 08:18 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01062" HREF="msg01062.html">[MUD-Dev] MOSIX: Multi-computer Operating System for unIX</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 18 Sep 1998, 19:06 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="01061" HREF="msg01061.html">[MUD-Dev] PCCTS->ANTLR</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 17 Sep 1998, 19:06 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="01040" HREF="msg01040.html">[MUD-Dev] cellular automata as universe models</A></strong>, James Wilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Sun 13 Sep 1998, 23:27 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01046" HREF="msg01046.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</A></strong>, Joel Kelso <a href="mailto:joel#ee,uwa.edu.au">joel#ee,uwa.edu.au</a>, Tue 15 Sep 1998, 01:14 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01047" HREF="msg01047.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: cellular automata as universe models</A></strong>, James Wilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Tue 15 Sep 1998, 02:01 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01037" HREF="msg01037.html">[MUD-Dev] [off-topic] news!</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sun 13 Sep 1998, 22:27 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01038" HREF="msg01038.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: [off-topic] news!</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sun 13 Sep 1998, 22:31 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01039" HREF="msg01039.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: [off-topic] news!</A></strong>, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <a href="mailto:asmodai#wxs,nl">asmodai#wxs,nl</a>, Sun 13 Sep 1998, 22:51 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>