<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun --> <!--X-From-R13: "Xba O. Znzoreg" <wyflfvapNvk.argpbz.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 22:22:06 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199808080518.AAA07963@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199808050735.CAA24416@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com --> <!--X-Reference: Pine.PMDF.3.95.980805091909.541268586A-100000#nova,wright.edu --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00552.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00554.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00487.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00035.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00553">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00553">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00553">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Jon A. Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 01:19:33 -5</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On 5 Aug 98, s001gmu#nova,wright.edu wrote: > On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Jon A. Lambert wrote: > > [snip] > > > My basic point is this. > > > > If a mud allows unrestricted and nonconsential PvP interaction, then > > anyone who participates in such a game does so voluntarily and > > willingly. There can be no "victims" in such a game, either > > emotionally or physically. > > The key to this approach is the implicit understanding of the player that > the game 'allows unrestricted and nonconsential PvP interaction'. If a > game is purported to be safe, but actually allows pk, etc, then there > certainly are victims. Not victims of pk, but victims of the original > lie, that the system is 'safe'. Exactly. The effects of this claim on a player whose expectations are one of safeness and protection lead to claims of victimhood, unfairness and/or injustice. This may even have legal repercussions as was alluded to in another thread (Dr. Cat & JCL). I hope not. There are many muds which attempt to allow PK/non-PK environments to coexist through various mechanisms. (ie flagging, restrictions etc.) I have yet to see a mud (that did this) where two separate and very discordant societies did not develop. Personally, I don't find this to be a desireable environment. I wonder how much of this is motivated by the getting the "most players" issue? Does this reflect a weak or compromised vision by an implementor(s)? > [snip] > > > Which brings me back to my original point. If one participates > > frequently in games which allow killing, how can one rational > > consider RL emotional effects of being a "victim" should such action > > occur to themself while participating in such a game? And if so why > > the heck would one voluntarily participate in any such game. In > > other words, one holds the viewpoint that their virtual game piece is > > a personal avatar of themself. Actions which affect that avatar are > > viewed equivalently with RL actions (PK ~= harassment). They are > > participating in a game in which they have expectations which are not > > reflective of the game rules nor ther players expectations. I think > > it's incumbent upon the administrators of a such a game to be upfront > > and define their own expectations and assumptions of their playerbase > > as clearly as possible. > > Which means, if I understand correctly, that you are saying 'the admin > should make it clear what the rules of the game are, before anyone plays, > and if there is a misunderstanding and someone get's torqued off, well, > too bad, you read the rules and agreed.' Right? > Basically, yes. Although I had to go and get all longwinded about it. There's something to be said for brevity. Thanks. ;) -- --/*\ Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Internet:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com /*\-- --/*\ Mud Server Developer's Page <<A HREF="http://www.netcom.com/~jlsysinc">http://www.netcom.com/~jlsysinc</A>> /*\-- --/*\ "Everything that deceives may be said to enchant" - Plato /*\-- </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00484" HREF="msg00484.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></LI></UL></LI> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00487" HREF="msg00487.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00552.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wi</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00554.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00487.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00035.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00553"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00553"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00484" HREF="msg00484.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 07:38 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00486" HREF="msg00486.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Robert Woods <a href="mailto:rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu">rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 08:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00554" HREF="msg00554.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 08 Aug 1998, 05:22 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00487" HREF="msg00487.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 13:28 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00553" HREF="msg00553.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 08 Aug 1998, 05:22 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00035" HREF="msg00035.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 19:46 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00278" HREF="msg00278.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 18:02 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00281" HREF="msg00281.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 18:50 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00299" HREF="msg00299.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 01:56 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>