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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Nathan F Yospe <<A HREF="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:48:53 -1000</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Mike Sellers wrote:
:Turkle, which doesn't take us very far). Given that, it's not surprising
:that a bunch of (here I go again) young white mostly-unmarried male
:suburbanite refugee designers haven't been able to do it either. Still, I
OK, young, yes. 23. White... well, sort of. I think my biological mother was
pure european stock. My stepmom is sixth generation Hawaii Japanese. My dad
is eastern Jewish. Swarthy, I believe the word is. Sort of white. Unmarried?
Yeah, but I'm 23. Got a girlfriend I'm serious about. Suburbanite? Never
been one. I've lived on farms, and my parents have a rural estate... I've
lived in city slums, too. But never suburbs. ;p Still... your point has some
merit.
:think it *can* be done -- and frankly it bugs me that people place the
:blame on the consumers (the players) rather than the producers of online
:game-communities.
I think the problem is partly that there has been very little effort to take
the demographics of the players into account when designing. The problem is,
none of us want to design day-care centers. I want to design a school, but...
that's different. I don't want them to *see* that they are being deviously
taught elements of physics, the scientific method, and the basic drive to
*question*... hence, I'm *counting* on the need of players to analyze their
game's mechanics. But... to channel aggression... constant pressure, is all
I could come up with.
:>> of organization on either the code or admin side, and it will have to
:>> sacrifice that sense of complete freedom. A large-scale pure roleplay
:>> game would basically have to be a fascist state. :(
:This is true only if you believe that Stalinist politics was the pinnacle
:of human achievement -- translated to the physical world, that's basically
:what you've described.
Unpleasant. Personally, I wonder if this is worse than the manipulation w
describe as an alternative...
:Dr. Cat wrote:
:>I feel like the question of how these issues play out in an environment
:>with no combat coded into the system is glossed over or ignored on this
:>list.
:I'd alter that a bit to say that I feel like the question of how to deal
:with social issues has been viewed through a very combat-centric lens. It
:is not the case that every social issue needs to be solved with a sword,
:nor that to find other solutions you need to remove combat from a game
:entirely.
True. Economic, political, and survivalistic methods also exist. I intend
to use all of them, or at least, to set the framework and manipulate them.
:>says maybe three things, none of them bad. 1) So a game like that would
:>be about LEARNING to do that better, rather than coming in and doing
:>something everybody knows how to do great from day one. 2) Since it's
:>needed in the real world, there is even more value in creating an online
:>space that can help people learn it. 3) If a small minority of people
:>have good understanding, skills and/or motivation regarding the effective
:>governance of the community, it just means that you'll end up with more
:>hierarchal sorts of governments, rather than flatter models - just like
:>the vast majority of forms of government tried in the real world.
:YES! Precisely. And as you say later, if you enable people to form their
:own community cells, people will find their own levels of governance. Not
:everyone wants to be king or baron or squire or sheriff -- but not everyone
:needs to be.
The problem, again, is the player demographic. Mind you, I'm doing this too,
with my own sociopolitical agenda.
:Amazing, isn't it? I've piqued the interest of several anthropologists by
:showing them how online interactions can be viewed as a distillation of
:what are generally more obscured social situations.
The question is, can they be used as effective real-world training?
:This goes to my point earlier that we as designers/developers must provide
:via technology the *mechanisms* by which the users can resolve their own
:social issues. Anyone who thinks this is limited to new types of weapons
:just isn't using his or her imagination.
A (relatively) closed economy, a (somewhat) hostile environment (to catalyse
bonding), and some mechanism for persistance of player presence (perhaps to
allow shared characters?) Any other ideas?
:>I do think it's interesting to note that the founder & leader of
:>Sanctuary is a woman who runs a day care center.
:Virtually all of the major guild leaders on M59 are/were women. I've seen
:this in other muds too. It may be that the skills needed to lead online,
:where physical presence counts for so little, are those more often found in
:women than men. This may in turn teach some of us quite a bit about the
:true nature of leadership anywhere, which has a great deal more to do with
:listening and team-building than with egotism and bluster.
Hmm. This is interesting. Maybe I'll ask Arlene to help me design the actual
game when it comes time to ship it... she'll have her masters in social work
by then... *ponder*
:Good observation. This is a doubly-strong filter too, since those who
:*design* the games are far more likely themselves to be interested in
:robust combat systems than elegant social systems, and so place their
:emphasis there (I would contend that this covers about 98% of MMPOG
:designers). So the players that are more likely to be more attracted to
:combat and combat-style social mediation are those who are more likely to
:be attracted to such a game, and these are the same ones who are least
:likely to be interested in or amenable to other forms of social resolution.
And what about me? (OK, so I'm not that interested in social systems, but
my attitude toward combat is, let them throw things at each other until a
builder assembles some real weapons.) All I care about is interaction of
physical systems. And conveyance of certain knowledge and understanding.
:>into sub-communities and sub-sub-communities as the population keeps
:>growing. If you do that, you can still have very high cohesiveness on
:>local levels, hopefully overlayed with a less strong but still positive
:>feeling of "nationalism" towards the game as a whole. Which is useful for
:>branding purposes for those few of us doing this commercially. :X)
A common enemy of the whole game populace (though I allow BAs, or rather,
do nothing to prevent them.) and a number of subcultures and cultures...
:Whew. Again, I agree completely. This "cell division" nature of community
:formation depends on some of the mechanisms for social resolution to which
:I was alluding earlier, and will not occur without them. But compare the
:likelihood of this being implemented vs., say, better ranged weapons or
:poisoning mechanisms. Social engineering is a virtual unknown at this
:point. :-/
Players spend the first few weeks of gameplay immersed in individual non
human (except the humans, who should get culture shock from post-union
humanity) cultures, observing a series of attrocities induced upon their
people...
--
Nathan F. Yospe - Aimed High, Crashed Hard, In the Hanger, Back Flying Soon
Jr Software Engineer, Textron Systems Division (On loan to Rocketdyne Tech)
(Temporarily on Hold) Student, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Physics Dept.
yospe#hawaii.edu nyospe#premier.mhpcc.af.mil <A HREF="http://www2.hawaii.edu/~yospe/">http://www2.hawaii.edu/~yospe/</A>
</PRE>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00009" HREF="msg00009.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Wed 01 Jul 1998, 19:47 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00011" HREF="msg00011.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Ling <a href="mailto:K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk">K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk</a>, Wed 01 Jul 1998, 20:12 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00049" HREF="msg00049.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 06 Jul 1998, 18:26 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00738" HREF="msg00738.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sat 15 Aug 1998, 17:46 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00010" HREF="msg00010.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Nathan F Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Wed 01 Jul 1998, 19:50 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00030" HREF="msg00030.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 01:12 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00033" HREF="msg00033.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 17:33 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00158" HREF="msg00158.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 00:59 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00245" HREF="msg00245.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 18 Jul 1998, 00:45 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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