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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Jon A. Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:37:15 -5</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On 12 Jul 98, Marian Griffith wrote:
> On Fri 10 Jul, Jon A. Lambert wrote:
> > On 9 Jul 98, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > > On Wed 08 Jul, Jon A. Lambert wrote:
>
> > But in the games under discussion, violence is fully automated. And
> > there's a builtin result, death. And most of these games do not
> > allow players to stage combat. Why is all this so? Is this an
> > affordance to avoid?
>
> This is a difficult question that I rather not attempt to discuss. Not be-
> cause it is not interesting but because it likely to end up as a pk or not
> pk discussion.
>
Actually, that's not the avenue I was keen on exploring. Dr. Cat's
Furcadia does not implement combat. This is fine. I'm not
advocating PK nor am I advocating non-PK. OTOH, your example
assumes that PK is present and you seem to be looking for mechanisms
"in-game" to either prevent this violence or to provide enough
discouragement where its occurance is rare.
One such mechanism for allowing PvP actions in a mud is to make
it be by mutual player consent. Thus, your tailor's survival is
assured. The player behind Buffy may even wish to stage a robbery
and beating with a potential perpertrator, all in the interest of
advancing a interesting plot.
> > > However to summarise the problem. Suppose I want to play a tailor, and
> > > on the game this is a valid skill and feasible profession. So I set out
> > > to learn the necessary skills with needle, cloth and dye and eventually
> > > I set up a shop where players can purchase designer clothing. It earns
> > > me enough to make a living and I get to talk to many players and get to
> > > create new fashions which is what I wanted to do all along. So far this
> > > is fine, but now comes along some player who decides that he wants my
> > > money, or he does not like tailors or whatever. In short he attacks and
> > > kills, steals my money and equipment. Obviously ignoring this player is
> > > not going to do me much good. He may eventually get bored but by that
> > > time my enjoyment in the game is thoroughly ruined. Fighting also isn't
> > > an option as I am a tailor and do not know how to handle anything more
> > > dangerous than a needle. Further, being a tailor I have no interest at
> > > all in learning to fight. Assuming there are many players in the same
> > > situation on that game what can we do? The only thing the current games
> > > offer is attacking and killing the offending player, simply because to
> > > fight is the only way the game provides to affect other players. Under
> > > those circumstances you can not expect much of a society to develop. At
> > > least not one that must resemble anything but a getto disrupted by gang
> > > wars.
>
> [I am leaving the entire example in even if it is a bit long]
>
> > Does Buffy wish to play in a world where her character can be
> > terminated without her consent? If not, then she should either be
> > playing a different game or a game that allows violence but has a
> > mechanism to mark her as a non-combatant. That is, she is immune
> > from attack and from attacking. And quite possibly her property is
> > also marked as inviolable. IF I ran such a game, I would also mark
> > such characters as unable to attack or be attacked by NPCs also.
> > <sigh>
>
> What I meant was that in most games somebody who wants to play a role that
> is not violent can not do that. Because the only affect in the game is the
> attacking and killing of other players.
True. Then again most games I play DO allow the role. Once violence
of players towards players are allowable actions there is no way to
Prevent those actions from occuring.
> I am leaving the issue of harass-
> ment in relation to affecting others rest for the moment. In current games
> unless they have no combat at all, the tailor must learn to fight to pro-
> tect her shop. This is no argument that I should be immune to violence. It
> is an argument that there should be other mechanisms to control behaviour
> that is socially disruptive (or meant as such).
All such mechanisms, short of the nokill/nosteal flags and the
automated or manual mutual consent policy, would be post-preventive.
> In reality people have so many ties to society that they can not do just as
> they please without serious consequences. Ostracism and denial of service
> are effective means to keep most people within bounds of reasonable beha-
> viour. And for those that are not deterred there is the whole mechansim of
> the law enforcement to keep them in check. On muds none of the former and
> preciously little of the later exists. This means there is no real check on
> the behaviour of players other than more of the disruptive playing style. I
> wonder if and how much rl mechanisms can be brought over to a mud. What can
> not be done and why not. How is the mud world different from the real world
> and what other mechanisms of social control can be thought of that do work
> in the mud world.
You can provide hundreds of in-game deterents, physical, social,
legal and yet there is nothing at all that will prevent your tailor
from being robbed or killed.
You seem to making the argument that Buffy's chances of getting
robbed or killed should be maybe 1 in 1000 instead of 1 in 10. No?
Or that somehow intent to harass or intent to screw up someone's
game plan should be taken into consideration?
My position is that if you wish a complete "player-safe" environment
scrap all the pretensions about coding social mechanisms, and do it
like Dr. Cat or the hundreds of other muds that currently do it.
--
--/*\ Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Internet:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com /*\--
--/*\ Mud Server Developer's Page <<A HREF="http://www.netcom.com/~jlsysinc">http://www.netcom.com/~jlsysinc</A>> /*\--
--/*\ "Everything that deceives may be said to enchant" - Plato /*\--
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00332" HREF="msg00332.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
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<UL>
<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></LI></UL></LI>
<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00183" HREF="msg00183.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></LI></UL></LI>
</UL></LI></UL>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00078" HREF="msg00078.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 08 Jul 1998, 07:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00123" HREF="msg00123.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 19:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 02:04 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00183" HREF="msg00183.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sun 12 Jul 1998, 22:41 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00201" HREF="msg00201.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 07:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00332" HREF="msg00332.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 24 Jul 1998, 20:44 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00504" HREF="msg00504.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 06 Aug 1998, 00:58 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00330" HREF="msg00330.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 24 Jul 1998, 16:42 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00338" HREF="msg00338.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Fri 24 Jul 1998, 21:56 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
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