<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem --> <!--X-From-R13: Qnyvona Fverfvnf Rnexybpx <pnyvonaNqnexybpx.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:47:23 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199808260345.VAA24085#darklock,com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199808182155.PAA03985#darklock,com --> <!--X-Reference: 10962.980825#io,com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00847.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00849.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00845.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00854.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00848">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00848">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00848">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Caliban Tiresias Darklock <<A HREF="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:44:42 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On 11:05 PM 8/25/98 -0400, I personally witnessed Travis Casey jumping up to say: >On 18 August 1998, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote: > >> Roleplaying is impossible to code, > >Roleplaying is impossible to code -- however, it is possible to >encourage or discourage roleplaying through both world background and >what you code. And through initial introduction! If your players are introduced to the world through things that whack you in the face with THIS IS A GAME, then you're not going to have the same mindset as if you go through something like a lifepath generator (R. Talsorian's "CyberPunk 2020" has been a great starting point for my efforts in this). The key is to give the player a perception that his character is not a playing piece, but a REAL person with real goals, skills, and background. MUSH style gaming often does this by requiring you to write a detailed background for approval by one of the staff. I find that this works really well, but is very labor-intensive for the staff. >As I've said before, my >definition of roleplaying is playing a character as if it were a real >being existing in a real world, instead of simply a playing piece in a >game. I'd agree here, but... >Thus, from my point of view, increasing the "realism" of the game >automatically encourages roleplaying. I have to take exception here. There are a lot of things that are realistic (hunger, thirst, bathrooms, disease, crime, procreation) but are NOT FUN and therefore distract from the true effort of playing the game. The player ends up *fighting* the system instead of working with it, and eventually has to resort to the sort of activities (scripting, triggers, etc.) that encourage viewing the character as property rather than as a separate living creature. >> and *ongoing* >> problem solving is very difficult to code. > >Possibly. No one's done it yet (that I've seen, at least), but that >doesn't mean it can't be done. Precisely why I called it "very difficult". Arguably, computer chess is an ongoing problem solving game... of course, if I wanted to play chess, it completely eludes me why I would choose to play it online against a computer. If I want to play online, I probably want a human opponent, and if I want to play a computer, I probably want to do it locally. I just had a weird thought. Imagine the computer playing multiple opponents at random. Consider: five people are wandering around the chess tower. The computer, in the background, makes a move on a chessboard, and then pops up the board in front of a random player. The player makes a move. The board disappears. If the computer has been checkmated, the person who made the last move gets some sort of reward. If the computer mates the player, the last player to make a move gets some sort of punishment. Likewise, you can have rewards and punishments for taking and losing pieces during the game. That's a truly twisted idea. I should play with that some more, but I was never very good at chess, so I wouldn't enjoy this sort of puzzle at all. That, in my mind, makes me the wrong person to implement something like this. So anyone who likes this concept, feel free to steal the idea if you want. >Combat, to me, is a subclass of problem solving -- killing something >is simply a way of solving some problems. >Limiting the scope of what you're doing always >makes it easier -- the trick is in knowing what's broad enough to stay >interesting for a good length of time while still being small enough >to be easy to implement. Yeah, that's the hard part, isn't it? We're all basically shooting in the dark on this, when push comes to shove. :) --- =+[ caliban#darklock,com ]=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=[ <A HREF="http://www.darklock.com/">http://www.darklock.com/</A> ]+= "It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institution, and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new one." -- Niccolo Machiavelli =+=+[ FREE KEVIN * <A HREF="http://www.kevinmitnick.com/">http://www.kevinmitnick.com/</A> * IT COULD BE YOU ]+=+=+= </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00861" HREF="msg00861.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Travis S. Casey" <efindel#io,com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00854" HREF="msg00854.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Adam J. Thornton" <adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00771" HREF="msg00771.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></LI></UL></LI> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00845" HREF="msg00845.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Travis Casey <efindel#polaris,net></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00847.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Modular MUD [Was:Finer points of Telnet progra</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00849.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Modular MUD [Was:Finer points of Telnet programming ...]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00845.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00854.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00848"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00848"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00765" HREF="msg00765.html">[MUD-Dev] Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 14:05 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00771" HREF="msg00771.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 21:55 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00773" HREF="msg00773.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, jwilson <a href="mailto:jwilson#rochester,rr.com">jwilson#rochester,rr.com</a>, Tue 18 Aug 1998, 23:39 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00845" HREF="msg00845.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 03:09 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00848" HREF="msg00848.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 03:47 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00854" HREF="msg00854.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Adam J. Thornton <a href="mailto:adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU">adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 04:43 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00861" HREF="msg00861.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Wed 26 Aug 1998, 13:19 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00796" HREF="msg00796.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, Jynx (Wyrm / Tygr / Myth) Ryn <a href="mailto:jynx_ryn#mindless,com">jynx_ryn#mindless,com</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 07:36 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00797" HREF="msg00797.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Marion's Tailor Problem</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 21 Aug 1998, 13:12 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>