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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:48:15 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Tue 28 Jul, Koster, Raph wrote:
> > From: Marian Griffith [<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>]
> > [Example snipped of a rather nasty way of indirectly killing a newbie]
> > I really have only one question to this. Why did your friend do that?
> > And most likely to a player who had done nothing to him, did not know
> > what was happening and was justifiably very upset about what was done
> > to him?
> The simple answer, "because he can."
> The longer answer... whew. Because there are less empathic connections
> to people you only know over the Internet--you can objectify them more
> easily. Because given the chance, most people will be cruel to strangers
> (have you heard of the tests whereby they took a random group of
> perfectly nice people, and told them, "if you press that button, it
> gives an electric shock to a test subject in another room"? An actor
> screamed when the button was pressed; they all pressed it A LOT).
I learned about that experiment. I also remember that most people who
pushed that button where distinctly unhappy about it and needed some
authority figure to 'justify' their actions, so the example does not
entirely apply. The observation that people pushed that button more
easily if they could not see their victim suggests that you are for
the most part right however.
> Because given the chance, humans will attempt to exercise as much power
> over their environment as they can. Because humans tend to seek
> standing, and the easiest way to do this is to climb over those of lower
> standing. Because the game made it possible to do, thereby giving a
> veneer of acceptability to it. Because the perception was that the
> victim could escape anytime, and felt nothing because "it was just a
> game."
It is a sad excuse of the same ilk as "it was only a joke" and "she
meant yes when she said no". Neither of which hold in court, and the
majority of players ought to know better.
> > It is incidentally also the kind of behaviour that I would immediately
> > ban a player for were I ever to become an imm on a mud again.
> Sadly, I would guess you'd end up banning a significant part of any
> playerbase. In a commercial environment, I'd guess as many as 10-25%.
I think it is less, but that may depend on the particular game. Most of
the trouble players will not do things that are obviously and officially
frowned upon. The group that will persist is much smaller. The number of
true sociapaths is very small indeed.
> Then of course, there's the issue of catching them.
*shrug* Patience, snoop and logfiles are a great thing.
[vampire example on Legend snipped]
> A favorite sport was leading newbies from the inn to the door and
> saying, "Go on through, I'm right behind you!"
Which leaves the question why that vampire was there in the first place.
> Reprehensible? Sure. Valid? Erm... well, you could be roleplaying a
> callous, clever, cynical con man. Lord knows that plenty of players used
> this argument.
I do not think many people believed this excuse do they? Not even the
ones who use it. There was no roleplaying involved, just a case of in-
tentionally ruining somebodies fun.
> Desirable in your game? That'd depend on the expectations
> of the game. On Legend, we warned and eventually banned people for it.
Which would have been my reaction too. Of course I tended to get in
trouble with the higher imms for doing nasty things to players who
did behave badly but had not broken any rules. If a player summoned
newbies to a pk zone and killed them there (which was not expressly
forbidden as summoning was fine and killing in a pk zone was legal)
I asked several players why they did that. Answers like 'Because I
felt like it' and 'Because I wanted to teach them to have their no-
summon flag on' resulted in a quick trip to a freeze box of their
characters. I have no patience for advocates and prefer to judge a
player on his or her actions, not on the rules. Roleplaying an evil
character can never be an excuse to harass others. Players would be
cautious when they knew I was around however. And there was a lot
of whining that I was being unfair.
> On UO, we tell them it's their lookout and not to be so trusting. If it
> happened to me on any Pern MUSH, I'd freak. It comes down to how much
> policing you want to do, and how much you dislike the behavior, and how
> much you value the ability to play con men, villains, etc.
Playing evil characters is very -very- difficult and not something I
would entrust new characters with on a roleplaying game. First they
have to prove that they know how to roleplay before they are allowed
into a role that could harm the game of other players.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00464" HREF="msg00464.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <adam#mail,angel.com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00379" HREF="msg00379.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00919" HREF="msg00919.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 03 Sep 1998, 04:01 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00924" HREF="msg00924.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 03 Sep 1998, 06:14 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00379" HREF="msg00379.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Mon 27 Jul 1998, 23:29 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00383" HREF="msg00383.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Tue 28 Jul 1998, 02:21 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00447" HREF="msg00447.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 01 Aug 1998, 21:57 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00464" HREF="msg00464.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#mail,angel.com">adam#mail,angel.com</a>, Mon 03 Aug 1998, 20:26 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00470" HREF="msg00470.html">[MUD-Dev] Milgram experiment (was Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun)</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Tue 04 Aug 1998, 02:13 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00935" HREF="msg00935.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 04 Sep 1998, 01:25 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00380" HREF="msg00380.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Tue 28 Jul 1998, 00:30 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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