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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Matt Chatterley <<A HREF="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 03:23:11 -0000 (GMT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
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On 24-Jun-98 Marian Griffith wrote:
> On Tue 23 Jun, Mike Sellers wrote:
>
>> At 11:11 PM 6/22/98 -0700, John Bertoglio wrote:
>
>> No you see -- that's precisely my point. We will never have "perfect code"
>> like this. Nor will a game be enjoyable for long if it's up to the
>> GMs/sysops/etc to zap people from on high. This is why I called it
>> *social* engineering. We can't create code to make sure that no one annoys
>> anyone else, but we *can* create code to make sure that the players can
>> create their own social mechanisms to deal with such situations. We can't
>> provide technological or central-business-oriented solutions to what are
>> inherently distributed social issues.
>
> True that you can not (entirely) force people to play nice by making it
> impossible to be anything else. However providing mechanisms for other
> players to deal with the social misfits 'on their own terms' plays right
> into their hands. You made the game which was intented a nice roleplay
> environment into something that fits the killers. Even players who don't
> want to fight others are forced to, because that is the only way there
> is for them to protect themselves. So in a sense the killers have won.
>
> Not a nice dilemma.
Marian (partially) highlights something very interesting; more by implication,
really.
The attitude of a lot of people towards naughtiness (lets be specific here, and
look at the PKing, PStealing situation), is this:
"This thing happening is X, thus to [en/dis]courage people [to/from] doing it,
we will do Y, with Z consequences."
The thing is, the entire approach is based on negative reinforcement - you
add mechanisms to punish people who PSteal or PKill, and to allow retribution,
and so forth - this is all well, and good (well thought out methods for this
can be *fun* to play with, in a reasonable environment). How about positive
enforcement to toe the line, though? It's often overlooked (particularly when a
rapid solution is desirable).
The reputations approach as was discussed a while ago (?) is a good start;
although it tends towards the negative reinforcement again (you suffer a bad
reputation if you PK, or PS). You can certainly reward (reinforce positively)
dealing with criminals in an appropriate manner (via reputations, bounties, and
many other ways). But, what is 'to gain' for Bubba, if he does NOT PK that
traveller, and steal his gold?
Bubba won't be hunted down and killed like a dog. But, to Bubba, that isn't a
reward - its the normal situation. So, is the norm what we might consider a
'positive reinforcement'? "Toe the line, and you are rewarded with a nice,
normal, life".
Perhaps there are eventual rewards - if you have a clean slate, you can apply
for legally orientated jobs (Sherrif, Posse member..), or become part of the
Kings Court (without being *brought before* the Kings Court). However, is Bubba
going to look ahead to these things, if they are a way off?
Are there no immediate rewards which are bestowable? Well, the answer would
seem to be no - we can tell when a crime is commited, but, beyond some sort of
Prescient, melange-doped chip, we cannot tell when someone does not commit a
crime. Can we?
In an environment where sophisticated choices are made, of course, we cannot,
but perhaps we could bestow periodic, 'bonuses' on the normal folk (not the
vigilantes, and not the bad guys). Good Karma? Gradually building 'average'
reputation?
An alternative of course, is to change our perception of normal, instead of a
binary state (Normal, Criminal, or 0, 1), how about trinary? Back to the old
Good, Neutral, Evil (no Chaos theory accepted at this time). You're evil if
you do bad things (PS, PK). You're good if you kill a PKer, or return goods
which a PS took, to their rightful owner. If you do neither, you are neutral
(criminal status = -1, 0, 1 for Good, Neutral, Evil). If you are Good, and then
PK or PS, you flick straight to evil (no 'adjustments'), but.. does that make
sense? Now we only have a 'snapshot' of you - you were Good, but now, you're
Evil! Decreased granularity can perhaps tackle this; the point is that if you
ever PK, PS, or counter one of these crimes, you will *never* be 'normal'
again. Punishment is doled out to the Evil (they get bashed by the Good). The
Good are rewarded (bounties, and reward money). The Normal.. well.. anyone care
to jump in?
- --
-Matt Chatterley
<A HREF="http://user.itl.net/~neddy/">http://user.itl.net/~neddy/</A>
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.." -John Lennon (Imagine)
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<li><strong><A NAME="00322" HREF="msg00322.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00120" HREF="msg00120.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00299" HREF="msg00299.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 01:56 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00037" HREF="msg00037.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 20:30 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00074" HREF="msg00074.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 08 Jul 1998, 05:46 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00039" HREF="msg00039.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 20:43 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00054" HREF="msg00054.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Tue 07 Jul 1998, 02:24 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00120" HREF="msg00120.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 19:36 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00322" HREF="msg00322.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 23 Jul 1998, 20:23 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00323" HREF="msg00323.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Thu 23 Jul 1998, 23:14 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00329" HREF="msg00329.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 24 Jul 1998, 15:46 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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</UL>
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</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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