<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis --> <!--X-From-R13: [ngg Qunggreyrl <znggNzcp.qla.zy.bet> --> <!--X-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:20:18 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: XFMail.980712231818.matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199807090544.AAA27312@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00180.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00182.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00103.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00194.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00181">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00181">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00181">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Matt Chatterley <<A HREF="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:18:18 -0000 (GMT)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 09-Jul-98 Jon A. Lambert wrote: > On 2 Jul 98, Travis S. Casey wrote: >> > [snip conversation about number hiding]] >> >> In doing that, hiding numbers isn't the only thing that I'd need to do. >> To take a typical, D&D-derived game system and hide the numbers wouldn't >> help in the suspension of disbelief; indeed, it would quite likely hurt >> it, or make the game nearly impossible to play. I'd need to try to set >> things up so that the game works as much as possible like the way you'd >> expect a real world to work -- so that you don't *need* the numbers as >> much as you do in a D&D-style world. >> > > Exactly. Many P&P systems require players to have numbers readily > available for resolving actions. Automating the process of action > resolution make many of these numbers meaningless and unnecessary. > Typically the only numbers that require display are those involving > vital statistics and those involved with players considering there > chances at performing an activity. And these numbers can be > displayed in any number of ways; literally, textual description or > graphically. Right. I also feel that replacing the numbers with more descriptive information is conducive to a different approach to gaming (more below). It also (to my mind) makes it 'friendlier' to those who are unaccustomed with this type of game, and requires less instruction - "My strength is 18? What does that /mean/?" versus "Okay, so I'm very strong.." (of course, the logical continuation is similar, since it is ".. compared to what?"). > Rolemaster, for instance, has a 6 or more page character sheet which > is largely a collection of numbers. In addition, there are dozens of > tables which need to be referenced in order to derive one's chances > at success at a given action. In short, all these numbers make the > game less playable from a ftf standpoint and their exposure would > be very counterproductive to online play. Intimate knowledge of > these numbers would of course be very helpful to GoPers. However, I > think only "Rainman" would be able to process this quantity of > information fast enough to gain significant advantage. Long term > experience may lead players to instinctively guess at odds. As > one who has attempted to min/max creation and play on occasion for > grins and giggles, I find that the many situational and exception > variables to numerous to get a firm handle on. Right again. We're also in a situation whereby we can make the 'behind the scenes' calculations a lot more sophisticated, since people do not need to be able to cope with them any more. Displaying a lot of information which is needed can make playing tedious. I find numerical data more tedious personally; others may disagree (do you?). > [snip] >> That depends on what your game is. For me, nothing would be up -- the >> GoPers who "broke" the system would know the internal rules and numbers, >> but, since I'm trying to make an accurate simulation, this won't help them >> much, if at all, and I don't really care if it does help them (as long as >> it doesn't give them a huge advantage). The real point of hiding the >> numbers was to help those who want to roleplay to do so, by eliminating >> the distraction of numbers. Short of forcing all the roleplayers to >> memorize the rules and numbers, the people who have "broken" the system >> can't prevent it from doing that... and thus, from my point of view, they >> haven't "broken" the system at all. > > Aye. Role-players, per my definition, do not often spend a great > deal of time crunching numbers in order to gain mechanical advantage. > More often they are interested in making decisions based on "fuzzy", > but helpful, feedback from their gamemaster. As I mentioned at the top, its basically the 'Roll player' versus 'Role player' response. A PC mage (new to the whole adventuring thing), encounters a small, yet mean, and armed Goblin. The 'Roll player' thinks 'Well, my strength is 10, I have 8 hitpoints, and I can cast one magic missile, which does 1d6+2. I can kill him easily - hed have to win the initiative three times in a row to get me, and thats only 0.001% likely...' and so forth. The 'Role player' thinks, 'A Goblin! Scary! Retreat! Weedle out of combat!', and so forth (obviously, depending upon the character, but, the point is made). [Snip rest] - -- -Matt Chatterley <A HREF="http://user.itl.net/~neddy/">http://user.itl.net/~neddy/</A> "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.." -John Lennon (Imagine) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQB1AwUBNalEOksWGgRW8+MZAQE2nAL/ayfnHDttyJOmsIYVJhWaE1H9pLBdFRoJ S0E/0Ck32XmN3koV1F641O5I2/dskSg185KsyMzaAVUh7Gobisx/8+mu1MBSA/Bz 6ujR5a3O5jB1mFiBGYicHEpMcRMmSYlW =fc/k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00194" HREF="msg00194.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <adam#angel,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00103" HREF="msg00103.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00180.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Alternate UOL's</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00182.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Alternate UOL's</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00103.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00194.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00181"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00181"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00038" HREF="msg00038.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>, Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 20:41 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00055" HREF="msg00055.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>, Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vt#freehold,crocodile.org">vt#freehold,crocodile.org</a>, Tue 07 Jul 1998, 02:43 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00165" HREF="msg00165.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>, Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 17:38 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00103" HREF="msg00103.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 05:45 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00181" HREF="msg00181.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sun 12 Jul 1998, 22:20 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00194" HREF="msg00194.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 20:14 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00197" HREF="msg00197.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>, Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 21:46 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00198" HREF="msg00198.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 23:16 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00207" HREF="msg00207.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>, Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 19:12 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>