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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Damion Schubert" <<A HREF="mailto:zjiria#texas,net">zjiria#texas,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:33:09 -0500</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
-----Original Message-----
From: Brandon J. Rickman <ashes#pc4,zennet.com>
>On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote:
>> [some stuff I should reply to, maybe later]
>>
>> I've been looking at AI recently, and thinking "If I do a really BAD AI,
>> and admit up front through my backstory that 'the enemy is not too smart'
>> or something like that, and work under the assumption that every player
>> will be able to outwit and outsmart the AI... wouldn't that still be
fun?"
>> I mean, old games had really crappy AI. Think of the Might and Magic
series
>> through MM3. The enemy sees you, closes to melee range, and attacks.
>> Period. It doesn't know how to go around anything. It doesn't know how to
>> look in any direction except straight ahead. And if you put a low
obstacle
>> between you, you can merrily fire missile weapons into the enemy until it
>> dies. Probably two or three enemies think to fire missiles back at you.
And
>> you know what? That was still pretty fun.
>
>Some quick Might & Magic 6 bashing: the "AI" has barely progressed from
>that of the third installment. Not only _can_ you mow down hordes of
>tri-colored skeletons from across three feet of water, you _have_ to, in
>an endless, mindless slaughter-fest. To make this slightly less
>entertaining, most powerful creatures will fire missiles and spells at you
>from a distance and many are resistant to physical attacks.
Having worked with Jon van Canegham, I can tell you that this is
part of his design philosophy. Sure, he could improve the AI, but to
be honest, it's a lot more satisfying to kill a horde than finally slay a
solitary troll. He's a big believer of 'Nothing (including realism)
should get in the way of the fun.' Sound familiar? I think he believes
that everyone, deep down, wants to be a powergamer- and that's
really the most rewarding part of the CRPG experience.
By comparison, I've played Unreal lately, and I can't stress how
unsatisfying it is to never fight more than 2 monsters at a time.
And sure, they all exhibit good AI, but in some cases, it's so good
that the only way I could beat the level was to abuse holes in the AI.
I felt like a cheat when I did that. When I killed 60 skeletons in
M&M6 with one spell, I felt like a god.
>Since there
>are so many monsters to kill (I would estimate there are at least 50
>monsters to kill for every friendly villager wandering around town. So
>much for preventing the world from being taken over by an evil plot -
>things are bad all over, and it is up to you to kill everybody.) the
>rewards are very small. And actually the best source of experience is to
>complete various quests, most of which require the termination of some 40
>to 300 monsters, frequently human.
>Thinking about how uninteresting I found M&M I started to make some
>little diagrams to illustrate how simple the play structure is and
>how narrow the appeal. But I'm unsatisfied with it and will postpone
>posting it for the moment, lest it be taken as a simple bash on a game
>that isn't even a mud. The basic idea is that a game can be more
>satisfying when the activity of the game changes over time, moving from a
>struggle to survive to ambitions of glory, or vice versa. If the
>amount of character management increases as the game difficulty increases
>I find that the fun is diminished.
While other companies work to reinvent the RPG experience, M&MVI stays
true to it's form and provides an extension of the old CRPGs - Bards Tale 2,
Might and Magic I, Ultima III, Wizardry. They did a bloody good job, and
the
game took ~120 hours of my life away. I'd never accuse it of being a ROLE-
playing game, or a fantastic story, but gosh, it was fun.
Does this have relevance for MUDs? I think it has a lot. On the other
hand,
about a third of the posts on this forum is dedicated to controlling
powergamers, instead of indulging them. =)
--damion
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00902" HREF="msg00902.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00429" HREF="msg00429.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Brandon J. Rickman" <ashes#pc4,zennet.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00401" HREF="msg00401.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <adam#angel,com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00371" HREF="msg00371.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban#darklock,com></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00359" HREF="msg00359.html">[MUD-Dev] The Eternal City on The Big Network</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Sun 26 Jul 1998, 00:37 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00356" HREF="msg00356.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Markku Nylander <a href="mailto:thenewt#use,usit.net">thenewt#use,usit.net</a>, Sat 25 Jul 1998, 13:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00357" HREF="msg00357.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Nathan F Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Sat 25 Jul 1998, 22:42 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00400" HREF="msg00400.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 28 Jul 1998, 18:39 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00364" HREF="msg00364.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Damion Schubert <a href="mailto:zjiria#texas,net">zjiria#texas,net</a>, Mon 27 Jul 1998, 03:29 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00371" HREF="msg00371.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Mon 27 Jul 1998, 09:27 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00401" HREF="msg00401.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 28 Jul 1998, 18:48 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00414" HREF="msg00414.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 29 Jul 1998, 06:09 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00418" HREF="msg00418.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Fun vs Realism [ Was: OT: Sid Meier ]</A></strong>,
Adam J. Thornton <a href="mailto:adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU">adam#phoenix,Princeton.EDU</a>, Wed 29 Jul 1998, 14:21 GMT
</LI>
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