<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...) --> <!--X-From-R13: [nevna Uevssvgu <telcubaNvnrui.ay> --> <!--X-Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:57:07 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Marcel-1.46-0801210802-b49Ky&5#catling,demon.nl --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199807312258.PAA00963#under,engr.sgi.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Ma</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00447.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00449.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00439.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00451.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00448">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00448">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00448">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: Mud Dev Mailing list <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:08:02 +0100 (BST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Fri 31 Jul, J C Lawrence wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:39:45 +0100 (BST) > Marian Griffith<gryphon#iaehv,nl> wrote: > > The problem as I (and the original author) have is not so much that > > Buffy's shop can be raided but that it is Buffy herself who has to > > defend it. She is a tailor and possibly has no interest at all in > > becoming a sword swinger or else she would not have chosen that > > profession in the first place. > There's a design choice implicit in there under the inferred "right" > to do soley what she is intersted in, or to rephrase "To what extent > are the game or the game designers obligated to support narraw career > definitions?": > Buffy is a tailor and thereby should (pick one): > a) Never have to involve actions or skills notably outside her > chosen profession. Never is a strong word, but I strongly believe the game should provide the protection, not the player herself. [confusing selection of choices snipped] > Where the should/may substitution isolates the intended > cross-pollination and spread between skill sets. I trust -you- know what you mean. I am afraid you have lost me here, or somewhere in the list I snipped. Sorry. I will try not to show my ignorance quite as much. > Please note that none of this is predicated on combat > > Somehow in a game there must be ways for players to control > > harmful actions of other players in such a way that it does not > > involve more of the same. If a player attacks and kills other > > players the victims shouldn't be required to become better fighters > > if they do not care for that role (and the game allows them to > > play different roles). > <ponder> > Some shared or common skill sets are assumable. Here in the US it is > usually reasonable to assume that any non-senile adult is able to > drive. Other skills follow as a matter of culture and societal > structure. There is in any design an assumed or assumable baseline of > a common set of skills which all characters will have in some > non-negligable degree. This fact is of course almost universally > ignored, which is why that baseline is equally almost never defined, > despite the fact that any game design implicitly defines one. > So, what is the baseline in your system? Yes, you are playing a > tailor, which is a valid occupation in this game, and are not playing > a sword wielding armoured warrior, which is another supported role in > the game. This does not mean that the tailor should not and does not > have some skill at self-defense or street fighting, or more simply, > that he is not savvy in the more physical aspects of his world. It > all depends on the game designed-in assumable skill sets. I think we are constantly missing the point the other is trying to make which makes me wonder if there is any reason to continue the discussion I do not mean it is pointless but we do not seem to get anywhere. > Another view of this is how narrowly the occupation skills are > defined, or at least how narrowly pursuit of an occupation defines the > other skill sets. Is a good or even excellant tailor necessarily an > abysmall sword swinger? Is it necessary for a tailor to care at all? Originally I started the, I expect by now infamous, tailor example as being about -me-. I can easily imagine myself playing the role of a tailor in a mud. Most of the things I mentioned are things I believe can be fun to do and would, for me, make a fun game to play. It would be a non violent role in a nearly non violent environment. I will not request the impossible and demand an entirely safe environment since there will always be troublemakers. What I do however feel I have the right to demand is that being non-violent myself the game will defend me from the occasional trouble maker. Defend, not prevent. If I can't be a peacefull tailor because I would be everybody's victim then the game has in a very real way failed to live up to its promise to me. I do not at this moment care how things are going to be handled. I even think that it is irrelevant as long as 'we' do not admit that the is- sue must be solved at another level than giving players means to kill each other in more or less creative ways. Marian -- Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world, out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again will there be loneliness ... Rolan Choosing Talia, Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00451" HREF="msg00451.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Robert Woods <rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00439" HREF="msg00439.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00447.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00449.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wire d Magazine...)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00439.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00451.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00448"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00448"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00444" HREF="msg00444.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 01 Aug 1998, 21:56 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00122" HREF="msg00122.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 19:38 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00161" HREF="msg00161.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>, Orion Henry <a href="mailto:orionZ#ix,netcom.com">orionZ#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 03:42 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00439" HREF="msg00439.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 31 Jul 1998, 23:01 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00448" HREF="msg00448.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Sat 01 Aug 1998, 21:57 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00451" HREF="msg00451.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired Magazine...)</A></strong>, Robert Woods <a href="mailto:rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu">rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu</a>, Sun 02 Aug 1998, 01:11 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Affordances and social method (Was: Re: Wired</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sun 02 Aug 1998, 05:37 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00050" HREF="msg00050.html">[MUD-Dev] IMatix Tools: Libero and SMT</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 06 Jul 1998, 20:39 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00048" HREF="msg00048.html">[MUD-Dev] Ubiquity Scope & Requirements</A></strong>, Greg Munt <a href="mailto:greg#uni-corn,demon.co.uk">greg#uni-corn,demon.co.uk</a>, Sun 05 Jul 1998, 19:54 GMT </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>