<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun --> <!--X-From-R13: "Fenivf E. Qnfrl" <rsvaqryNvb.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:59:14 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.BSI.3.96.980721175629.537A-100000#pentagon,io.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:efindel#io,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00290.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00292.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00316.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00295.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00291">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00291">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00291">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Travis S. Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:57:27 -0500 (CDT)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On 21 July 1998, Marian Griffith wrote: > On Fri 10 Jul, Jon A. Lambert wrote: >> I'm questioning the direct linkage between real violence and mud >> violence. How can one voluntarily and willingly participate in a >> game where violence is possible, while maintaining that there is >> such a link? >> I would maintain that willing participation in such a >> environment is tantamount to endorsing the position that violence >> does not occur in muds > Violence does not equate physical violence. It is the exertion of > power over somebody else. Normally I don't get involved in this kind of debate, but I have to say that this definition of violence is *far* too broad. By this definition, a parent telling a child, "You can't have that." is performing a violent act, a stop sign is the government performing violence on motorists, a policeman writing someone a ticket for illegally parking is performing violence, and someone putting up a "no shoplifting -- violators will be prosecuted" sign is performing violence. I don't think that most reasonable person would classify these as violent acts. I'd propose this definition: Any action which stands a serious risk of harming someone else is violence. Note that harm does not have to be physical -- one can harm someone psychologically, socially, economically, or possibly in other ways. Note further that no value judgement is implied here: some acts of violence may, in fact, be good. (For example, if I run headlong into someone at full force, I stand a serious risk of harming them. However, if I do this in an attempt to keep that person from being run over by a bus, most people would count that as good.) It should also be noted that violence may be unintentional -- the person performing the violence may not realize or understand that there is a potential for harm. Lastly, it's not always clear-cut whether an action is violent or not; two people may disagree on whether a particular action stands a serious risk of harming someone else. In fact, an action done to one person may not be violent, because it does not stand a serious risk of harming that person, while the same action, done to another person, may be violent. (For example, if I grab and kiss my wife at home, that's not a violent act, because I know that it won't hurt her. However, if I were to grab and kiss someone who might be hurt if I did that to them, that would be a violent act.) With that said, I think the biggest disagreement among mudders is not about whether violence is bad, but about what is a violent act. Some believe that if you are acting in character, and only doing things to someone else's character, there should be no serious potential for harm -- that everyone in the mud should realize/believe that it's just a game, and the characters are just playing pieces. For another contingent, their characters are more than playing pieces -- they are representatives of themselves in a virtual world. From that point of view, an attempt to harm a character is an attempt to harm the person playing that character, and is therefore violence. Most of us, I think, are somewhere in the middle, believing that some actions are OK because "they just affect the characters" while others are not OK or are less OK because they carry the potential of harming the players. However, there is still disagreement over "where the line should be drawn." My personal feeling is that there is no one place to draw the line: different people are comfortable with different kinds of interactions in a mud. (In fact, people have differing comfort levels depending on what mud they're on or on what character they're playing.) Since it's impossible for any mud to create one standard that all possible players will agree on for what will constitute violence, I see this as a reason why multiple muds should exist, and why muds should state their policies up-front: so that people can find a mud that has rules they can be comfortable with. To use a real-world analogy: I don't like to be touched by anyone that I don't know well. I also don't like to be around rowdy, screaming people. For these reasons, when I'm seeking entertainment, I avoid sporting events, rowdy nightclubs, and similar places. In the same way, someone in the online world who isn't comfortable with other people interacting with their character in certain ways should avoid muds where those kinds of interaction are seen as being OK. >> There are two types of online mud games. Those which operate >> on the "principle of mutual consent" and those that do not. >> Violence can only occur in games that are operated under the >> principle of mutual consent. This violence is also limited to mental >> effects generated by the victim as a result of violation of this >> principle. Games that do not implement mutual consent, do not >> acknowledge their violence as real violence. I have to say that I don't agree with this either; the real world does not operate on the principle of mutual consent (that is, it's quite possible to do things to people without them consenting to them), but I think we all will agree that violence does happen in the real world. The fact that it's recognized that *characters* may attack each other and that the players are expected not to take offense does not mean that there is no potential for violence; just that there's no potential for violence in certain ways. One could still direct violence against a player in any of several ways -- making threats against that player, for example. To put it another way, it's recognized in most "normal" paper games that the players are in competition, and that they will act against each other within the game. Thus, in a Doom-style game, for example, it's not a violent act to shoot at another player's character. (That is, it's not true violence... we could get into "pretend violence," but this is getting too long already.) However, it would be violent to start uttering threats against another character's player (e.g., "Get your character out of my way. I know where you live.). -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com> ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00290.html">[MUD-Dev] Overworld Maps on diku style Muds- Design notes</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00292.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Overworld Maps on diku style Muds- Design notes</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00316.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00295.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00291"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00291"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00285" HREF="msg00285.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Matthew R. Sheahan <a href="mailto:chaos#crystal,palace.net">chaos#crystal,palace.net</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 21:39 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00301" HREF="msg00301.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 02:32 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00302" HREF="msg00302.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 04:19 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00316" HREF="msg00316.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 20:36 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00291" HREF="msg00291.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 22:59 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00295" HREF="msg00295.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 00:45 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00297" HREF="msg00297.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 00:57 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00307" HREF="msg00307.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 15:06 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00308" HREF="msg00308.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Wed 22 Jul 1998, 15:08 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>