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<H1>RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Lee Sheldon" <<A HREF="mailto:linearno#gte,net">linearno#gte,net</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:06:06 -0400</LI>
<LI><em>Importance</em>: Normal</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu
> [<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu]On">mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu]On</A> Behalf Of
> Raph Koster
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:10 AM
> To: mud-dev#kanga,nu
> Subject: RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu [<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu]On">mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu]On</A> Behalf Of
> >Ryan Palacio
> >Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 8:10 PM
> >To: mud-dev#kanga,nu
> >Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking
> There is no doubt in my mind that we'd all LIKE to make
> twinking be purely
> social ties, and not any goods or equipment. But it'd be
> pretty hard to
> separate the two in existing game designs.
Aye, there's the rub. Existing game design built or leeched from each
other. My whole focus is removing "material" possessions as the end reward,
and concentrating on knowledge, standing, skill, etc. to determine success
in the game. Once you do that, there is nothing to twink with. There have
been several good examples of how to accomplish this in this thread:
maintenance of quality, nerfing based on level, etc. These are fine if
you're locked into the basic American "I am my possessions" philosophy of
game design. But it is by no means the only way to measure anything.
> The thing about having a better equipped character and a
> higher level player
> to walk you around is that it gives a direction, clears away
> confusion,
> offer a wider range of experiences than you could get alone,
> and offers
> excitement you couldn't get fighting the rats you were
> supposed to fight.
> This doesn't mean that a mud couldn't offer all these things to every
> newbie--they just don't, right now. Wish they did!
But I don't want to be the sidekick. I want to be the Hero. Maybe it
should be constructed like a gunfighter story. The old gunfighter teaches
the new how to shoot, knowing in his heart that eventually the two will be
in direct competition. The old gunfighter keeps a dying way of life alive
in the new. The new itches to prove himself to the old in the ultimate
test: a gunfight between them. There is something more emotionally at stake
than in a guided tour.
>But let's return to those four issues of
> boredom, monotony,
> confusion, and direction. It's very unlikely that you can
> give me sufficient
> information to solve those four problems when all I have to
> kill is rats.
> Hence players give each other stuff, which CAN solve the
> problem. They are
> being very pragmatic about it. Again, it's not to say that a
> mud couldn't be
> set up so that information was paramount, but it's a much
> harder nut to
> crack than to simply accept the current styles of twinking, I
> suspect. Love
> to see it done, though.
It isn't harder mathematically or programmatically. It simply requires a
paradigm shift (albeit a huge one) from the engine driving the content to
the content driving the engine.
> The question to ask, it seems to me, is whether these are the
> correct things
> on which to put the central emphasis. (Not to say that they
> shouldn't be
> elements, but rather whether they should be the core
> advancement mechanic of
> the game). Now, I don't know an answer, since a) virtually
> nothing has been
> done in the GoP field that isn't this way and b) I'm sure
> that other ways
> have their own hosts of problems that I just don't know much
> about); but I
> am pretty sure that finding advancement ladders distinct from
> these easily
> transferrable goods is a desirable thing--in part because it
> opens up the
> games to a wider audience, in part because it permits
> institutionalized
> twinking, and in part because it does not preclude the traditional
> advancement ladders from existing (meaning, you get more
> advancement ladders
> within a single game, increasing game longevity).
I agree a hundred percent. It is absolutely necessary if we indeed want to
reach a mass market level of audience. (Some don't, that's fine). But the
mainstream commericial products need to figure this out pretty fast. One
will be the first. And that one will consign the rest to their own finite
niche markets.
> > The game will ultimately become "too
> > hard" for them and they will leave unless cared for constantly.
>
> Only if a) that aspect of the game is the only thing the game
> defines as
> mattering, and b) if there is a *need* of some sort to keep
> advancing (eg,
> you can't decide to just stay put at that level of
> achievement and muddle
> along as you have been). Neither of those need to be true, and b) in
> particular can be pernicious, because it DOES chase away players.
I would think we've all seen examples of the player who accepts too many
cheats or twinks, and never completes a game, or stays in the world. It
never becomes their experience, but is secondhand just like their clothes.
"Socially acceptable" twinking through guilds, mentors and so on should fit
seemlessly into the reality of the game world. Twinking through character
manipulation is outside the game world, breaks the fourth wall, and is in
the end destructive to the experience.
> In fact, I think it is a driving factor behind the
> socialization model of
> console games. The way we always played them was to pass the
> controller
> around at every death or something, until we had
> collaboratively beaten the
> entire game. When some of the friends I had been playing
> Crash 2 with went
> and finished it on their own, I actually abandoned playing
> the game feeling
> it had become pointless--they had gone ahead and done it, why should I
> bother? I was enjoying the mutually-twinked ride
> (particularly twinked, in
> my case!) way more than I was enjoying the challenge.
The works very well in a console game of that type. No one forgets they are
in a social situation sharing a gaming experience. But it hardly applies to
a world whose success is predicated on the ability for the player to believe
herself part of that world.
> Certainly. For any given game, the answer is going to vary.
> The statement I
> made was that twinking itself, as a mode of operation and as
> a mechanic, is
> a good thing and deserves to be institutionalized.
As long as it is part of the structure of the game world and not the game.
>Currently, the general assumption is
> that twinking is
> bad. I like to question assumptions. :)
Lee
(Right in there with you, questioning away)
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00466" HREF="msg00466.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Raph Koster" <rkoster#austin,rr.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00469" HREF="msg00469.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio#verant,com">rpalacio#verant,com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00466" HREF="msg00466.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster#austin,rr.com">rkoster#austin,rr.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00490" HREF="msg00490.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Todd McKimmey <a href="mailto:rufus#wombatgames,com">rufus#wombatgames,com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 22:08 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00505" HREF="msg00505.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Jeff Freeman <a href="mailto:skeptack#antisocial,com">skeptack#antisocial,com</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 04:13 GMT
</LI>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00519" HREF="msg00519.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Lee Sheldon <a href="mailto:linearno#gte,net">linearno#gte,net</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 18:11 GMT
</LI>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00448" HREF="msg00448.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Timothy Dang <a href="mailto:tdang#U,Arizona.EDU">tdang#U,Arizona.EDU</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 01:44 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00462" HREF="msg00462.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Frank Crowell <a href="mailto:maddog#maddog,com">maddog#maddog,com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00293" HREF="msg00293.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] banning the sale of items</A></strong>,
Par Winzell <a href="mailto:zell#alyx,com">zell#alyx,com</a>, Sun 16 Apr 2000, 22:29 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00310" HREF="msg00310.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] banning the sale of items</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:the_logos#achaea,com">the_logos#achaea,com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 03:21 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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