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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Ryan Palacio" <<A HREF="mailto:rpalacio#verant,com">rpalacio#verant,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:10:10 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
Raph Koster wrote:
> Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, a definition:
>
> TWINKING: the act of assisting a lower level player to advance in the game
> at a much faster rate than they would be able to achieve on their own, via
> the giving of experience (often via XP split systems inherent in grouping
> systems), items, goods, or money.
>
> This is the term as it is used in the context of EverQuest and many muds,
> but it is not the same as the classic definition used on social muds,
> wherein a TWINK was merely a jerk or perhaps a GoP player.
>
> There are several decision points at which a player makes a decision
whether
> to stick with a mud. The very first is what I'd call the "scratch 'n'
> sniff."
> [snip...]
>
> There's only so much you can do to improve the scratch n sniff. It's very
> audience dependent.
> [snip...].
>
> The second inflection point is after they start playing. Everyone has
horror
> stories about their first play session on a mud. The most frequent words
> tend to be "confusing" "directionless" "boring" "monotonous" etc. It has
> been empirically shown that meeting a friend in the first five minutes
> results in a MUCH higher chance of getting past this inflection point. In
> fact, I bet you have had this experience with a friend or colleague (I
know
> *I* have):
> [snip...]
Somehow, I get the distinct feeling that the "meeting a friend" does not
NEED to constitute "twinking", as per the definition above. The example
Raph provided of "institutionalized twinking" in AC extends from a
"heirarchical social structure". Therefore, is it merely the incentive for
experienced players to assist newbies, take them under their wing, and keep
them playing, or is it the newbies receipt of material goods that get the
newbies over "the hump"? In the paragraph above, the use of the words
"confusing", "directionless", "boring", "monotonous" suggests to me a
disorientation and/or lack of understanding of the environment. In turn,
this suggests an "ill-equipped" player, not an "ill-equipped" character.
Following that logic, it would appear that the learning curve to the
environment and establishment of a firm footing in the in-game world (be it
socially or with regards to the UI) is the issue. I guess I still fail to
see that inter-level interaction necessitates the transfer of goods, coin,
or xp. Knowledge is the ultimate resource in any game, and the tranfer of
this is what should be encouraged.
Let us now side-step to an issue that I believe weighs heavily upon the
"twinking" thread: Item Importance/Value.
In EQ, the players (and economy) are highly item dependant. Without them,
the character is at a distinct disadvantage. With them, characters can
achieve significantly more. The loss of a single item can represent a
significant blow to the character's performance. Without any restrictions
on the transfer of items, the balance of power can be significantly swayed.
It is therefore in the interests of EQ developers to minimize high level
items reaching low level hands. I will not embark on explaining the
methodology for means of restriction (utilized in EQ or otherwise), as that
is dependent on the results of this thread.
On the other hand, my limited experiences in UO (correct me if I am wrong
Raph), have shown me that items are of significantly less importance. The
ability to lose everything on your corpse prevents attachment to any item.
The potential for item breakage/decay coupled with the greater importance of
skill(s), effectively minimizes the symptoms of twinking.
I believe these represent two relative extremes, and whereever your own
game/design fall between these two will determine the ramifications and
magnitude of potential symptoms. On one hand, you have to minimize symptoms
through various forms of restriction to curb high-to-low level item trading.
On the other, you have a system where items, in general, lack permanence,
significant character impact, and significant RL value. (eBay typically
sells EQ items, and some accounts, whereas the UO selection primarily
consists of accounts, coin, and housing)
> Damion Schubert once said to me, "I want a newbie to see the coolest thing
> the game has to offer in the first session. Imagine if they saw a dragon
and
> helped kill it on the first day." (Very rough paraphrase here). He's dead
> right. That first play session, before they make that decision to
> emotionally invest in the game, needs to be awesome.
>
> Above all, it cannot be humiliating (cf Jonathan Baron's "Glory and
Shame").
> Killing rats is humiliating.
Let's not put the cart before the horse here. No doubt the first impression
must be significant and intrigue. However, in EQ, many landmark rewards
(such as viewing - much less killing - a dragon) are representative of lots
of invested time and effort. It's a "pay before you pump" system, but not
to the exclusion of occassionally providing new and intriguing things to
keep you "on track".
As for the humiliating part, it's all a matter of perception of power.
Starting by killing goblin whelps, or drudges, or skeletons, or some
creature perceived as potentially capable of fighting back provides an
initial level of power greater than that garnered by killing rats, bunnies,
etc. At the same time, some designs feel that the acquisition of skill and
power relative to a lesser state increases the sense of accomplishment.
Under this system, starting out hitting a practice dummy, killing
bunnies/rats, or chasing a chicken around a yard (ala Rocky I), is just a
matter of interactivity. Rats and bunnies do fight back, no matter how
ineffectually, providing an understand of combat in a minimum risk
environment. Sure you aren't gifted instant "hero" status. But similarly,
if you get through the initial stages/inflections, you probably see more
improvement relative to "ground zero" than if you had been started a rung or
two higher.
Power balance can be exactly identical in both instances - its just player
perception of the opponent. Not everyone requires a booster seat to sit at
the dinner table the first time, some just sit and deal with being a little
lower. Its not a matter that the food tastes any different when viewed from
the side or above, just how it is presented.
> What more welcoming thing is there than to get outfitted like a hero,
handed
> thousands of gold pieces, and invited along to kill a [insert critter you
> couldn't possibly tackle solo]? [snip...]
Doing it myself and having a complete self-satisfaction that I was able to
achieve it alone as compared to the "twinks" that needed friends/help to do
it. Call me masochistic. But I personally enjoy the trials and
tribulations each level or trial has to offer. And in the end, I know that
everything I accomplished or acquired was through my own hardships and
conquerings thereof. I have a pride in myself (RL) as well as my character.
> So twinking, to a point, actually extends player longevity. Now, if your
> game system is such that someone being twinked basically runs through all
of
> your game data in a far shorter timespan, then leaves, then yes, you have
a
> problem. But that means that the problem lies with your game system, and
not
> with the very natural tendency of humans to assist friends who are less
> fortunate.
I disagree with this overall. Let me turn this around a little bit.
"Does average Joe Gamer consistantly 'complete', 'finish', or 'win' the
majority of single-player titles he/she owns if the difficulty level exceeds
his/her _initial_ skill level?"
In other words, does average Joe Gamer rise to the occassion and improve
him/her-self as necessary? Or does Joe Gamer quit, pack up their toys and
go home?
If to the former one answers "yes", twinking will not extend longevity since
Joe Gamer will not quit until they have overcome the impediment to their
progress.
If to the latter one answers "yes", you cannot help Joe Gamer unless you
provide them a dedicated baby-sitter. The game will ultimately become "too
hard" for them and they will leave unless cared for constantly. And since
noone likes a leech, Joe Gamer will not have friends very long and will
decide to quit.
> ...get them to have friends, within two hours of logging on
> for the first time
This necessitates...
> a system whereby elder players are incentivized to help newbies
"Help" _should_ primarily involve knowledge and social association.
> Mathematically, I'm pretty sure that the number of people you get past
that
> inflection point leads to more revenue/lifespan than the loss that results
> from the shortened lifespan of a twinked character--especially if the
maxxed
> out twinked character then chooses to do it over again "on their own" for
> the challenge of it.
That would actually require that people make the game effectively more
difficult for themselves. Their relative "norm" is being twinked. That is
all they know. They know that it sucked so much to NOT be twinked that they
required intervention by others. This gets back to the "step up to the
challenge or go home" question. Either I endeavour the first time around,
or it was too hard. If I can't complete Quake III on medium, I am not about
to try and complete it on hard or impossible difficulty. I also don't get my
friend to come over and complete a specific level for me. That would be
pointless as I would be effectively turning the game over to my friend
permanently (assuming progressional increase in difficulty). I believe the
person that undertakes that kind of hardship (recreating a character to "do
it over again 'on their own'") to be a rare exception and a completely
negligible percentage for purposes of this discussion. I would even venture
to tangentialize momentarily and state that I believe the largest percentage
of twinking in EQ occurs with "secondary" (or later) characters. The
purpose is to make it "easier", and therefore "faster", and/or attempt to
skip content the second time around. I guess this in itself could hold a
message.
I don't necessarily disagree with the overall argument, as I see many of
your points as valid in a general context. I do not feel that twinking as
necessarily bad, but that the stance on twinking taken by a development team
is completely situational and based on the individual project's game design
and "vision" philosophy.
Sorry for the rambling...
~Ryan Palacio
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<li><strong><A NAME="00466" HREF="msg00466.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Raph Koster" <rkoster@austin.rr.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00457" HREF="msg00457.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "F. Randall Farmer" <randy@communities.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">Re PRIVATE [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Kristen L. Koster" <koster@eden.com></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
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<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
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<LI><strong><A NAME="00436" HREF="msg00436.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
adam <a href="mailto:adam@treyarch.com">adam@treyarch.com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 23:12 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00449" HREF="msg00449.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Geoffrey Z. <a href="mailto:gzatkin@verant.com">gzatkin@verant.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 01:56 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00454" HREF="msg00454.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster@austin.rr.com">rkoster@austin.rr.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 02:55 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00493" HREF="msg00493.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
adam <a href="mailto:adam@treyarch.com">adam@treyarch.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 23:43 GMT
</LI>
</LI>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00446" HREF="msg00446.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 01:34 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00453" HREF="msg00453.html">Re PRIVATE [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Kristen L. Koster <a href="mailto:koster@eden.com">koster@eden.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 02:33 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00457" HREF="msg00457.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
F. Randall Farmer <a href="mailto:randy@communities.com">randy@communities.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 03:42 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00465" HREF="msg00465.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster@austin.rr.com">rkoster@austin.rr.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00469" HREF="msg00469.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking</A></strong>,
Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Wed 19 Apr 2000, 18:55 GMT
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