<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account --> <!--X-From-R13: "XQ" <wraobjvrNqnivqobjvr.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:43:46 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 002101bfab0c$ad75d0c0$b40c010a@cscc.edu --> <!--X-Content-Type: multipart/alternative --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters pe</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:jenbowie@davidbowie.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00489.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00496.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00498.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00503.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00495">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00495">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00495">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "JC" <<A HREF="mailto:jenbowie#davidbowie,com">jenbowie#davidbowie,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:08:40 -0400</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <TABLE><TR><TD BGCOLOR="#ffffff" STYLE="background-color: #ffffff; "> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--- Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <<A href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com">Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>> Daniel wrote:<BR>> >p.s. I actually like the idea (or rather 'Mark Wells' idea,<BR>> >ahem) of character persistence. I'd really like to build<BR>> >it into a future game. Heavens, though, not for realism's<BR>> >sake (I vaguely recall this being his principal motivation),<BR>> >but rather that it increases attachment to the world and<BR>> >opens up some interesting gameplay avenues. And yes, you<BR>> >would need some sophisticated AI/scripting to make it work, <BR>> >making it a pretty scary implementation proposition.<BR><BR>> As to interesting gameplay avenues opened, imagine trying to<BR>> play out Tolkien's masterpiece without character persistence.<BR>> The bearer of the ring would _have_ to be an NPC, since a PC<BR>> could wink out of existence at the drop of a hat. What then<BR>> happens to the ring? Does it just drop to the ground to be<BR>> picked up by whomever is nearby? And what of the fellowship?<BR>> Now Aragorn is here...now he is not. Poor Frodo will never<BR>> know whom he can trust to be there to defend him against the<BR>> black riders...or black rider...or no riders...where'd the<BR>> rider's go? Hehe.<BR><BR>Character persistance does not require the same player's persistance. This kind<BR>of persistance is an issue of priorities. Persistance of this sort seems to be<BR>more important on the MUSHes that I frequent than the MUDs I've sampled in the<BR>past.<BR><BR>This is somewhat due to what MUSHes have to engage the players, which is, other<BR>players, since many MUSHes are tabletop/pen-and-pencil RPGs converted to an<BR>online form and usually lack items like coded puzzles, mobiles, and experience<BR>gains through combat.<BR><BR>The traditional concept for characters required a registration and approval<BR>process. Players were expected to put together a detailed and coherent<BR>character which would be examined and placed within a group because of some<BR>hook in the character's stats or background.<BR><BR>The popular shift in newer MUSHes (particularly WoD) is Open Character<BR>Generation, where a player can make any number of starting level characters,<BR>completely crafted by them to their own specifications.<BR><BR> The first Open CharGen - Dark Metal - was a reaction to an earlier, more<BR>traditional MUSH that had failed, an experiment to see what would happen with<BR>the opposite rules. Or in the words of "Emily Treason", one of the founders: <BR><BR>"In the beginning, there was Masquerade, and the god of Masquerade decided for<BR>reasons I won't get into to close the mush. And the ex-building wizard of MasqI<BR>did go unto Thor, the ex-site admin and did say unto him, "Hey, we got a mush<BR>concept, you got a site?" And Thor did say, "Yea, verily," and thus was<BR>Amarynth born. And it was to be what all the players claimed they wanted --<BR>quality-centered, backgrounds-checked, all characters approved, and so forth<BR>and so on. <BR><BR>And after a few months, the staff did look around and say, "Those bloody little<BR>buggers lied -- they don't want staff to dictate quality. They don't want<BR>control." <BR><BR>After starting at USD in the Academic Computing department graduate lab in<BR>spring of 1994, DM moved the next year (after the university administration<BR>opted to take a momentarily dim view of mushes) to Fiend in North Carolina, and<BR>then in late 1996 to Anubis in Boston.<BR>The mush remains in a state of flux and tinkering, the better to provide a<BR>quality role-playing cyberpunk-cross-gothic punk venue for the players. After a<BR>general overhaul, chargen is once more fully open to the public -- unlike other<BR>'open chargen' WoDs, there are no race quotas, and you don't need to submit an<BR>application to get the character set up." -Emily Treason, 1997 (from<BR><A href="http://www.ennui.net/darkmetal/intro.html">http://www.ennui.net/darkmetal/intro.html</A>) <BR> <BR><BR>If the success of the experiment is measured by the size of the player base,<BR>then Dark Metal is an enormous success. It attracts 130+ players a night and<BR>has spawned many imitators. The newest MUSHes are extending the concept of Open<BR>Chargen even further in the desperate attempt to attract new players by<BR>throwing every character race/type/class that they can think of, regardless of<BR>whether they mesh well or not. Throwing in every published race is distracting<BR>enough without including non-WW races such as Highlander-style Immortals. I'm<BR>wondering if this race glut is common elsewhere or merely part of a published<BR>system. What is considered to be an ideal number of races?<BR><BR>In an Open Chargen system, more races seem to heighten one of the main problems<BR>inherent in the concept. If you make the character with only your ideas in<BR>mind, then the character starts out in the game isolated from IC connections.<BR>Sure, the staffer can work to wedge the character in somewhere, but you still<BR>end up with a surplus of hacker/supermodel/ninjas or homeless/runway/orphaned<BR>children with hearts of gold and a lack of people in support positions playing<BR>paramedics or journalists or politicians. <BR><BR>Depending on the MU*, there are differing amounts of support that players learn<BR>to expect from the staff. I've been on MUSHes where players called for staff<BR>judges at the first sign of combat or conflict, which causes more work for<BR>staffers and tends to slow down play and possibly encourage a less bold<BR>mindset, it can really maintain a meta-story well. On the other hand, Dark<BR>Metal's laissez faire attitude extends out of the chargen and expects the<BR>players to handle their own conflicts and combats as well as develop their own<BR>plots and guilds and areas for approval. The staffers are primarily called in<BR>for rule clarifications, over the top ideas, and heated name calling. Leaving<BR>much of the action up to the players can be chaotic, have an inefficient amount<BR>of overlap in player actions, and lack somewhat in a directed meta-story, but<BR>the freedom encourages player interaction if they wish to achieve their goals<BR>and brings about the unexpected in interesting ways.<BR><BR>It seems there is a third way to handle character persistence. Keep the<BR>characters persistant, even if the players aren't. Firan MUX uses a roster<BR>system of pre-made characters that already have detailed connections and<BR>backgrounds to the players and the theme. The most important and involved<BR>characters, Level 1 Features, often require an application, while the Level 2<BR>Companions and Level 3 Citizens are immediately accessible. A newbie has a<BR>fully fleshed out and connected character within moments of logging on. No<BR>Chargen required. The idea is that the players are more like actors in a grand<BR>play, instead of mere extensions of themselves. Not too useful for a pay site,<BR>but the characters end up going back on the roster after 10 days or so idle.<BR><BR><BR></FONT></DIV> </TD></TR></TABLE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00489.html">[MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00496.html">[MUD-Dev] LA Times article: Virtual Loot for Real Cash</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00498.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] LA Times article: Virtual Loot for Real Cash</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00503.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00495"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00495"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00513" HREF="msg00513.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd)</A></strong>, Charles <a href="mailto:caugusti@gladstone.uoregon.edu">caugusti@gladstone.uoregon.edu</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 04:13 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00509" HREF="msg00509.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd)</A></strong>, Chris Jacobson <a href="mailto:fear@technologist.com">fear@technologist.com</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 04:13 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00496" HREF="msg00496.html">[MUD-Dev] LA Times article: Virtual Loot for Real Cash</A></strong>, Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 23:43 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00498" HREF="msg00498.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] LA Times article: Virtual Loot for Real Cash</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@cp.net">claw@cp.net</a>, Fri 21 Apr 2000, 00:02 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00495" HREF="msg00495.html">[MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account</A></strong>, JC <a href="mailto:jenbowie@davidbowie.com">jenbowie@davidbowie.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 23:43 GMT <UL> <li><Possible follow-up(s)><br> <LI><strong><A NAME="00503" HREF="msg00503.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account</A></strong>, Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <a href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com">Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 04:13 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00489" HREF="msg00489.html">[MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></strong>, Fred Clift <a href="mailto:fred@veriohosting.com">fred@veriohosting.com</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 22:08 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00497" HREF="msg00497.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@cp.net">claw@cp.net</a>, Thu 20 Apr 2000, 23:56 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00504" HREF="msg00504.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] interesting article on world size and finance</A></strong>, John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:jb@pulsepoll.com">jb@pulsepoll.com</a>, Sat 22 Apr 2000, 04:13 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>