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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "Mud-Dev" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Jon Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:11:35 -0400</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
Zak Jarvis wrote:
>
> If you're going to keep the game accurate to the era and locale, I think you're quite
> likely to have a very difficult time finding a playerbase.
Ah but there are so many eras and locales. There is no monolithic "ancient Greece".
Not one that we can point to and say this is true and this was the way it was without
qualification of time and locale. Not like the Wild west, Puritan New England
or Harlem of the Roaring Twenties which are almost self-definitive in both time and
place. I cover historically the time from 950 - 200 BCE, yet do incorporate mythological
elements from legends of the golden age. The topic provides a very rich area for
setting and story mining. For instance, Athens is set at the early time of Clisthenes,
yet a range of historical and mythological characters that are 'out of time' inhabit
the city. Argos, Ithaca and Illium are throwbacks to time of the Trojan war. There
are a number of areas taken around the fringes of Greek experience, such as
Eatheopia, Cappadocia, as well as mythical Altlantea, Amazonia. The nature of
self-cohesive and varied city-states lend itself well to the traditional sharp distinctions
made in muds (areas). It's not a spoof ala Xena warrior princess, neither is it
devoid of humor. There will be some very light and unusual treatments of the Helen
story, the Hercules myth and others.
> Are you aware how legally restrictive ancient Greece was on what women
> could do? Not only were women simply not allowed to have any property,
> but they were effectively kept completely separate from all male society.
> The hetaira, which were a sort of courtesan/prostitute were able to achieve
> some degree of political power and were allowed into government buildings,
> but the power they had was completely unofficial.
Yes, but that is by and large a very broad brush. Certainly women were in
most times and places considered to be 'property' themselves. The notion that
property can hold property is a rather ridiculous one. :-P There are exceptions,
but not many. Separation from male society was quite uncommon. Partition,
reflection and mutually dependent roles are far more common. Some of those
will be represented. However, we place a disproportionate value on certain
roles that have meaning in our society, that have little or no meaning in other
societies to either men or women. On the flip side players place a high value
on roles that are non-existent in our society nor any society for that matter.
There will be some very significant female roles, and in areas in which no male
may tread. The entire religious aspect of Greek life in oracles and healers
was one dominated by women.
And besides, I think the Xena role and appeal is peculiarly a male fantasy. ;-)
> As for the homosexuality in ancient Greece it's probably summed up in a popular
> bit of advice for new wives. "On your wedding night, dress like a boy so your
> husband will know what to do with you."
And considering the joke was Greek in origin, it is revealing. Such was said
of the Laconians by the Athenian and Doric Greeks. Such was also said of the
Persians by the Ionian Greeks. I'm certain that future cultures will say of Americans
that which we currently ascribe in humor and legend to Appalachia. Oh wait..
I read foreign papers, they already do. ;-)
> The idea of doing period accurate settings is always interesting. When it
> comes time to expect people to actually live in them we run into problems.
> There are usually very compelling reasons people don't live that way anymore.
You might as well suggest that since ancient Greece is far to alien for the
contemporary player, that we not do Xanth, LOTR, Discworld or many other
myriad alien universes. There's no reason to believe, sans technology, that
we wouldn't live quite as they did. Colonial America is almost as far removed
from us socially as ancient Greece. It's not that in doing so, I place a value
on that way of living. Much to the contrary...I don't. I place a value on social/
emotional and educational experiences others might be able to take from it.
It's not enough to discard history with a we know better now approach, we're
enlightened now approach. Modern people, themes and issues are endlessly
repeated echoes of the ancient world. Maybe my theme is just an elaborate
and very very modern morality play. ;-)
> In my experience with games, it's been the straight players who've been
> walking gonads, not the gay ones. What's led you to this conclusion?
20% of 97% is always larger than 80% of 3%. The bottom line (for me) is
that they are irrelevant. They neither add or subtract value from any general
game simply by virtue of their particular perversion, though they may be at
pains to make it a point that they do. There are some games in which they
are the desired target audience. They just aren't worth my time and effort
to cater to. OTOH I have a pretty good understanding of the other.
Everyone's mileage can and will vary.
--
--* Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Email: jlsysinc#nospam,ix.netcom.com *--
--* Mud Server Developer's Page <<A HREF="http://jlsysinc.home.netcom.com">http://jlsysinc.home.netcom.com</A>> *--
--* "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson *--
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<li><strong><A NAME="00152" HREF="msg00152.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matthew Mihaly <the_logos@achaea.com></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] History, background and religion</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00245" HREF="msg00245.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] History, background and religion</A></strong>,
Sharon Mock <a href="mailto:sharon@voidmonster.com">sharon@voidmonster.com</a>, Fri 14 Apr 2000, 02:51 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00149" HREF="msg00149.html">Gender Restrictions was Re: [MUD-Dev] Same-Sex Marriage</A></strong>,
Jon Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com">jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 05:25 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00165" HREF="msg00165.html">Re: Gender Restrictions was Re: [MUD-Dev] Same-Sex Marriage</A></strong>,
Nathan F Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe@hawaii.edu">yospe@hawaii.edu</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 18:07 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00264" HREF="msg00264.html">Re: Gender Restrictions was Re: [MUD-Dev] Same-Sex Marriage</A></strong>,
Jon Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com">jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com</a>, Sat 15 Apr 2000, 05:12 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00150" HREF="msg00150.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage</A></strong>,
Jon Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com">jlsysinc@ix.netcom.com</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 05:25 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00152" HREF="msg00152.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:the_logos@achaea.com">the_logos@achaea.com</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 06:10 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00140" HREF="msg00140.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Family, was characters per account</A></strong>,
Daniel James <a href="mailto:dan@sensei.co.uk">dan@sensei.co.uk</a>, Mon 10 Apr 2000, 23:36 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00158" HREF="msg00158.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Family, was characters per account</A></strong>,
Jeff Freeman <a href="mailto:skeptack@antisocial.com">skeptack@antisocial.com</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 17:22 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00186" HREF="msg00186.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Re: Family, was characters per account</A></strong>,
Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster@austin.rr.com">rkoster@austin.rr.com</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 22:47 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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