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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Ryan Palacio" <<A HREF="mailto:rpalacio#verant,com">rpalacio#verant,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:15:52 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
Maddog#best,com wrote:
> I don't think the numbers support the "pvp for profit" thesis.
I think my point was missed entirely. It is not "pvp for profit" but rather
an increase in anti-social behavior, and subsequently problems (including
"viability and longevity of the game" as I stated before). The sale of
items in an OOC environment _directly_ affects the game's PvE balance. The
sale of items _directly_ increases the number of admin/customer service
issues due to people competing for _environmental_ resources that would not
otherwise be doing so (powergamers slumming in lower level areas to
"harvest" goods at nominal risk). The sale of items can decrease the time
the purchaser spends playing in that environment (similar to twinking this
typically increases the power of the receipient). This last point directly
affects the longevity by quickening the pace towards the "top". This
potentially can cause many problems, two of which are: (a) increase
churn/turn-over rate (b) "abnormal" population distribution ("abnormal"
being relative to design specifications).
For purposes of my posting, PvP is irrelevant.
>As Brad had previously stated, the issue is more
> of a "moral" question rather than a business question. The fraud
> issue was taken as an excuse to shutdown the auction side of business.
> The fact is that Verant feels that people are in some way cheating
> if they buy and sell things (apparently just sell since there is
> nothing about buying or trading).
My post was my own personal opinion. Verant speaks for itself. The two are
not in any way directly related.
In my eyes, not only does it promote defrauding others (rigging loot
lotteries, utilizing "loopholes" in the rules to gain admin assistance,
attempting to con admin's into reimbursing "lost" items that were not in
fact lost to a bug, etc), it is in itself an unlawful act. How so you might
ask? Actions taken that directly affect a company's profits by utilizing
their product in a manner inconsistant with the user agreement is
demonstrably _ILLEGAL_. If the aforementioned issues of churn and admin
issues are dramatically increased, profitability drops.
> item farming is not a profitable business.
Commodity farming is most definitely a profitable business. If this were
not true, why would EQ platinum and UO gold have higher US dollar exchange
rates than currency from many countries?!
> Neither is account selling.
> A level 50 account can go from 800 to maybe 1800-2000 if it is a top
> account. Even at minimum wage the hours to create such an account
> does not compensate the person for the time they put into the account.
I personally have seen EQ characters go from 1 to 50 in less than 5 days
play-time. Assuming 5 full days, that is a total of 120 hours. Let's user
your $800 low and assume this person follows a standard 40 hours per week
schedule. That puts them at $6.67/hour ("tax-free" btw). But assuming that
this person plays 10 hours a day and 6 days a week. That equates to $20,800
per year. PLUS, I am "working" with friends. I am in the comfort of my
home. I work my own schedule. I can enjoy other amenities while "working".
Etc etc.
> The other thing that such a move does is get the people off of
> fairly safe places such as Ebay and into more underground activities.
EXACTLY!! The higher the risk - the less trades will occur overall.
[snip commentary about Verant]
> Final note about a place like Ebay. I have the reputation of the seller
> available to me. I have the email, home address, and phone number
> available. I have an excellent support and fraud group ready to
> help if there is a problem. I have an escrow account i can use.
> I have a mediator i can use. I can register the complaint with
> the U.S. Postal Service and the National Fraud Hotline. I am also
> covered by Lloyds of London insurance. And I could, under special
> circumstances, bring criminal charges. What do I have through a
> bulletin board posting or private transactions done through
> several underground methods?
Higher risk. Little to no means of recourse should the deal go awry. Less
overall user-base per site. No one-stop shopping marts. More inconvenience.
All of these things combined diminish the number of potential trades. The
less potential trades, the less potentially lucrative, and increasingly more
difficult it becomes to establish a "business" doing such things. This in
turn leads to less people taking part in "money-making" ventures that _DO_
cause problems for other users.
When you pay $10 a month, you are paying for a service. Just as when you
pay at the movie theatre, if your personal enjoyment spills over and
negatively affects other customers, you _WILL_ be asked to leave.
~Ryan Palacio
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<li><strong><A NAME="00221" HREF="msg00221.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its populargaming sites</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matthew Mihaly <the_logos@achaea.com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00202" HREF="msg00202.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00193" HREF="msg00193.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> maddog@best.com</LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00187" HREF="msg00187.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>,
Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Tue 11 Apr 2000, 23:22 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00193" HREF="msg00193.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>,
maddog <a href="mailto:maddog@best.com">maddog@best.com</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 01:24 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00196" HREF="msg00196.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its populargaming sites</A></strong>,
Wes Connell <a href="mailto:wconnell@skotos.net">wconnell@skotos.net</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 04:04 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00212" HREF="msg00212.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>,
Frank Crowell <a href="mailto:maddog@maddog.com">maddog@maddog.com</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 05:50 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00201" HREF="msg00201.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>,
Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio@verant.com">rpalacio@verant.com</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 04:05 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00202" HREF="msg00202.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw@kanga.nu">claw@kanga.nu</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 04:36 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00221" HREF="msg00221.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its populargaming sites</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:the_logos@achaea.com">the_logos@achaea.com</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 14:22 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00191" HREF="msg00191.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites</A></strong>,
Sellers, Michael <a href="mailto:MSellers@maxis.com">MSellers@maxis.com</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 01:09 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00197" HREF="msg00197.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popu lar gaming sites</A></strong>,
maddog <a href="mailto:maddog@best.com">maddog@best.com</a>, Wed 12 Apr 2000, 04:03 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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</UL>
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</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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