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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "Mud-Dev" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Jon Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:52:54 -0400</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
Geoffrey A. MacDougall wrote:
>
I threw this back on the list Geoffrey, I hope you don't mind.
It may contain contradictions.
>I'm assuming the ;-), and the (intentional?) use of the capital 'C'
>represents the fact that you realize and expect the response I'm about to
>give. *g*
>
Hehe. Yes I did, because I have read your earlier posts on rights theory.
But you did surprise me with your last paragraph below, which are exactly
the thoughts I had hoped to entertain.
>There is a distinct difference between natural/civil rights - as Raph wrote
>about - and divine rights, to which I think you're referring.
>
>According to Matt's school of thought on the matter - you're correct in your
>statement that rights in the vw are granted by the Creator. However, I
>would argue that in the rw, there is no Creator, only creators. (Let's not
>carry on with this debate here, however. :) )
I believe there is a separation of real world (reality) and the divine world
(absolute reality). Yes..I agree the whither, how and why I believe
in that separation of dw and rw isn't a debateable topic here. :-)
>In the rw, the power to
>preserve rights lies with government (either through political force, or,
>once again in accordance with Matt, physical force), which derives its power
>from the body politic, via the social contract.
I don't disagree with where enforcement lay, just source. I think the connection
between source and enforcement in a vw is merely an arbitrary condition
imposed by the "gods" of that vw. It need not be so. It is not incumbent that
a creator(s) also be connected with any sort of governance.
Although some immutables of the vw might apply.
> Rights in the vw have to be
>granted by the Creator, as the Creator controls the reality of the virtual
>context, and can change things on whim - as can the Christian (and other)
>god(s). So - the respective theory of rights for the vw and the rw have to
>be different, as their power stems from different sources.
Exactly, there are enough parallels here to apply the necessary modifications
to make such a theory workable in a vw. The creators of a vw are much
more human, and often operate in discordant pantheons, so perhaps a closer
parallel would be the Norse or Greek mythos.
Those who enter a vw from the rw operate from a point of anamnesis (loss
of forgetfulness). That is they retain full perception of the rw and as a
result a firm grasp (more or less) and expectation of their rw rights. Their
inalienable rights _are_ derived from the rw, and furthermore from... :-)
IMO, there are three varieties of play in a vw. Many of these can be mixed
and matched and even occurred simultaneously in a mud/vw.
1)==Roleplaying is the attempt to operate in complete amnesis of the rw==
2)==Game playing is an attempt to apply and manipulate the vw to attain a goal(s)==
3)==Social play is an attempt to use the vw as an extension of rw communication==
Depending on the mix or lack of mix, characters or avatars may have distinctly
different sets of rights than the users or players behind them.
The rights of characters derive from the vw creator(s)/author(s). And the
rights of the users derive from the rw. Which is a possible answer to the
argument as to why PvP activities does not/should not/may not be a violation
of player or user rights.
Aside: One of the reasons avatars is not really a good term to use, is that it
is exclusive of (1).
>If we buy the argument that rights in the vw can never be more than favours
>granted the players by the Creator, then you raise an interesting point.
>Would it not be a more successful exercise to use the theory of divine (as
>opposed to natural) rights when trying to formulate a Declaration of the
>Rights of Avatars?
Yes sort of...I'm coming to a point... I think...
Let's discuss creators for a moment and their relationship to governance.
By creator I mean owner, implementor, the gods, the holder of the golden
power plug; upon whose divine whim the vw comes to exist.
Creators (implementers) are the primary authors of the vw. To the extent
that they are licensed to do so, coders, builders and players are also
authors of the vw. The physics, theme and character actions, commands
and format come together to form the texture or reality of the vw. vw
also operates in a restricted dimension of reality; where bandwidth,
server crashes, storage, power, legal liabilities, contractual obligations,
etc. must be considered in any rights document.
Creators can govern users/players - this seems to be the thrust of
Raph's "Rights of Avatars" document. (though in my terms read "users")
Creators can govern avatars/characters - the preceding paragraph on
authoring. The bulk of help files are concerned with this area. Ex.
Dwarves exist. Dwarves may not be clerics, Fireball is available at level 21,
The wolfman creature will attack anyone but female characters, Odysseus
is king of Ithaca, It is against the law to kill a cat in Thebes, etc.
Creators can choose not govern users/players - That is they give tools,
mechanisms, and powers to players. They may well author a initial constitution
and laws document like Eric Jarvi posted, along with immutable laws (I like
that term BTW), ex. No minors without signed permission slips from Mom
and 3 school teachers. and perhaps a "rights of users". Although in this
case Raph's document would be modified to reflect that there is no clear
separation of the administration from the users.
Creators can choose to allow governorship of avatars/characters - that is
game rules, themes, building, modification, programming, authorship
and most importantly _vision_ and _direction_ of the vw are shared
with players. I'd note that Eric's laws provide for game modifications.
Some rights have no meaning in v-space..the right to bear arms for
instance. I suppose the ultimate act of armed rebellion is a DoS attack.
vw's by their very nature support a personal right of succession (quit --
*PLONK*).
Back to those Norse and Greek gods...
The way most servers are governed resembles theocratic authoritarianism.
Even though a "rights of users" document is absent, they still may be very
well governed. I must admit that I have seen many many muds where I
strongly suspected either Loki or Poseidon was in charge. And there a
muds that are run well because their gods are wise and benevolent. They
may even have followed a 'rights of users' formally or intuitively. There are
two ways to operate here -- proactively and reactively. I viewed Raph's
rights of avatars' as a reactive administrative document. Although there are
provisions for proactive enforcement for emergency situations with
justification provided post action. The privacy rights are in conflict with
Lifeguard administration (which may or may not be a good thing).
Finally, if one was to adopt "The rights of avatars" and assuming creator
governance stays in place, then one's mud would then take on the
character of a theocratic republic. Those staff members involved with
enforcement largely take on the role of active demigods or saints with
all the separation and conflict. They must still be pleasing to the creators,
as well as ensure user rights.
And finally finally.... To the degree that the rights of users in a virtual world
comport with the rights they are accustomed to or desire in the real world is
perhaps a good measure of how comfortable (happy) they will be in that
virtual world. Which is probably the whole point of Raph's document.
So one that reflects only western thoughts on rights may well be more
appropriate and compelling to western muds than that UN one.
--
--* Jon A. Lambert - TychoMUD Email: jlsysinc#nospam,ix.netcom.com *--
--* Mud Server Developer's Page <<A HREF="http://jlsysinc.home.netcom.com">http://jlsysinc.home.netcom.com</A>> *--
--* "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson *--
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00359" HREF="msg00359.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>,
Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 16:22 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00381" HREF="msg00381.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>,
Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services <a href="mailto:Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com">Paul.Schwanz#east,sun.com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 20:17 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00409" HREF="msg00409.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>,
Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 19:48 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00423" HREF="msg00423.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>,
Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 19:48 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00415" HREF="msg00415.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>,
Jon Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 19:48 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00418" HREF="msg00418.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Declaration of the Rights of Avatars</A></strong>,
Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Tue 18 Apr 2000, 19:49 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00270" HREF="msg00270.html">[MUD-Dev] Quoting.</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sat 15 Apr 2000, 05:38 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="00269" HREF="msg00269.html">[MUD-Dev] meets</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:the_logos#achaea,com">the_logos#achaea,com</a>, Sat 15 Apr 2000, 05:11 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00378" HREF="msg00378.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] meets</A></strong>,
adam <a href="mailto:adam#treyarch,com">adam#treyarch,com</a>, Mon 17 Apr 2000, 20:17 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
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