<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner --> <!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNxnatn.ah> --> <!--X-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:46:09 -0800 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 4667.953174764#kanga,nu --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: NDBBJNMFMLADGHGILJHEGELLCFAA.joe#andrieu,net --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00618.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00620.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00592.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00620.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00619">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00619">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00619">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:46:04 -0800</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 22:14:02 -0800 Joe Andrieu <joe#andrieu,net> wrote: >> [J C Lawrence] >> -- The various levels of bandwidth consumption among the >> commercial games, and what trade-offs were made to get there >> (mostly in terms of what is dynamically streamed from the server, >> and what is stored statically on the client-side). > Wow. I missed that. What are the levels of bandwidth on these > systems? I've always wondered... It wasn't a long discussion, more a passing commentary by Raph in the discussion of streaming world contet (the talk ranged so widely it was tough to spend much time, or depth, on anything in particular). Perhaps Raph could chime back in? > Btw, I'm thinking the "EQ guy" you are referring to was me, > sitting between Shannon Appel from Skotos and the guy from Smaug > (Derek?) and the economist academic/grad student whose name > escapes me but had really cool things to say. Were you the fairly short haired chap I asked, in regard to the problems of EQ characters being sold on EBay, "But is it EQ's responsibility to guarantee that sort of consistent principle for the game for players?" (or some words to that effect)? I was across from him/you, and one seat to his right. > Actually, I'm with a start-up named RTD... Aye, that was one of the discussions I wanted to be in on, but was distracted. > ...Jeff Rawlings (formerly of AOL) was also at that end of the > table, sitting next to Scott Martins from Worlds Apart > Productions, producers of The Eternal City, and a chap from Skotos > to his left, which I think rounds out that end of the table. Yeppirs. > One thread that spun off the "deflationary economic model" of EQ > was whether or not it might be useful to model the economic > systems for managing durable goods in using a different model from > the one for consumable goods. It was mentioned in the EQ talk at > the conference that to balance hording, they would create > consumables that were very expensive, but really desirable. So > folks would convert their horded piles of stuff into cash and buy, > for example, potions or whatever that go away with use. This > seemed like a hack. Instead, what about managing/designing how > people build their durable net worth with one model, and design > the system for consumables with another. Tune the wealth building > separately from the "flow" of goods that make up the consumer > economy. Hurm. Conceptually I look at the two as potential engergy versus kinetic energy. They're both exactly the same thing, measured in exactly the same units, it just that one is in the process of moving. This has the advantage of also bring in the concept of the difference between static and dynamic friction in regards to rates of change of energy levels. If you look at it that way, the problems with hoarding degrade into problems with over-charged batteries or large weights being held up -- things that the RL universe conspires against thru simple decay (unpopular with players), and its less obvious osmotic counterpart entropy (things leak back towards zero-sum steady-state (ie decay)). Entrpoy is a concept that doesn't seem tobe directly dealt with much in current game designs (other than the crude level of direct object decay). The Ur/Meta/Instantiated object concept potentially provides a model here for gross entropic events (bank robberies?, thief silently replaces your mega-sword with a tinfoil sham without your noticing?). > And if we have a consumer economy, why not create a debt mechanism > so players could buy gear on credit and go adventure to pay for > it--very motivational and more challenging than the endless hack > to scrape a few coins together to upgrade my dagger to a short > sword. And if they can't pay back the credit when credit is due, > when, just think Loan Shark and some very interesting in-game > solutions pop up. This of course also creates a direct mechanism > for managing the money supply, a la Greenspan and the Federal > Reserve. I'd find it a little more interesting to create active supports for players to play bankers, loan sharks etc. Make the players instantiate the financial industries, along with all the normal safeguargs (and their costs) or lack of such safeguards (and lesser costs), and all the normal mafioso-style interesting behaviour that surrounds it. -- J C Lawrence Home: claw#kanga,nu ----------(*) Other: coder#kanga,nu --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- _______________________________________________ MUD-Dev mailing list MUD-Dev#kanga,nu <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00639" HREF="msg00639.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Derek Snider" <derek#idirect,com></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00630" HREF="msg00630.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Joe Andrieu" <joe#andrieu,net></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00620" HREF="msg00620.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#kanga,nu></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00584" HREF="msg00584.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Joe Andrieu" <joe#andrieu,net></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00618.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] javascript</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00620.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00592.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00620.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00619"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00619"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00578" HREF="msg00578.html">[MUD-Dev] ADMIN: Posting delays</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sat 11 Mar 2000, 19:28 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00577" HREF="msg00577.html">[MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sat 11 Mar 2000, 18:36 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00584" HREF="msg00584.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, Joe Andrieu <a href="mailto:joe#andrieu,net">joe#andrieu,net</a>, Mon 13 Mar 2000, 07:00 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00592" HREF="msg00592.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, Ryan Palacio <a href="mailto:rpalacio#verant,com">rpalacio#verant,com</a>, Mon 13 Mar 2000, 17:24 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00619" HREF="msg00619.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Thu 16 Mar 2000, 02:46 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00620" HREF="msg00620.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Thu 16 Mar 2000, 05:39 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00630" HREF="msg00630.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, Joe Andrieu <a href="mailto:joe#andrieu,net">joe#andrieu,net</a>, Thu 16 Mar 2000, 17:39 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00639" HREF="msg00639.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, Derek Snider <a href="mailto:derek#idirect,com">derek#idirect,com</a>, Thu 16 Mar 2000, 22:26 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00645" HREF="msg00645.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] CGDC dinner</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Fri 17 Mar 2000, 06:29 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>