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<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Kevin Littlejohn <<A HREF="mailto:darius#connect,com.au">darius#connect,com.au</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:28:02 +1100</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
>>> "Laurent Bossavit" wrote
> [On databases in general]
>
> I wouldn't use MySQL - the fastest SQL database around - for a MUD.
> It's optimized for ultra-frequent fetches of small to medium large
> chunks of information; our databases services 50 queries/sec and
Hrm. I'd have said that ultra-frequent fetches of small to medium chunks
of info is pretty much exactly where a mud sits. Of course, that depends
really heavily on _what_ you're using a database for. If you're using it
instead of file storage for characters, then it probably doesn't matter
_what_ you use. If you're using it to hold all your live game data, then
things get a bit trickier...
MySQL seems to work out nicely for us - admittedly, I've yet to see a
strain on the thing, but from what I've seen, I've got no concerns there.
What it _does_ lack, however, are transactions, and sub-selects - both of
which would help considerably in design ;)
Others: gadfly (python-based, if you know the layout of your tables it's
probably fastest, but equates out to having all data in memory at all times),
mSQL (dunno, haven't looked at it for a long time), Oracle (overblown,
slower than MySQL, but by $DIETY it does everything, including 'connected
by', which would be a _joy_ to use - provides for object hierarchies really
nicely), PostgreSQL (which _does_ look nice, and has some nifty tricks that
may help on the OO side... But which I couldn't fathom large object/blob
support for, so I gave up early). The list goes on, of course... ;)
> about a quarter of a gigabyte. It all fits on one (admittedly beefed
> up) machine. But I wouldn't use any of the "big" databases either;
> they are optimized to scale to terabytes of data, with robustness and
> consistency of the data given much higher priority than performance.
Again, I suspect it depends on what you're aiming for. Transaction support
under Oracle would be a godsend - kiss locking issues goodbye, pretty much,
if you plan things out right data consistency is a non-issue. Also, Oracle
does nice distributed database tricks - if you're willing to spend the
dollars for your mud ;)
> Fact is, I wouldn't consider using an SQL database for a M* type
> application; it's too much of a pain to map SQL records to the object
> oriented data used in most such software. My wish would be for a
This, I almost agree with ;) I have a layer set aside in Moebius that
maps SQL to OO, and it's a right pain. In addition, the quickest way to do
some things is no longer the obvious way - when the rest of your
programming world is OO-based, to suddenly discover that queries across the
mud (to find a particular type of item, for example) can be done much
quicker if you acknowledge the underlying non-OO-ness of the data store -
well, it throws an abstract spanner in the abstract works, if that makes
sense ;)
> native XML data store, with the ease of use and top-notch performance
> of MySQL, and a query language as useful and usable as SQL. This
> would be perfect for a MUD, and in fact many other types of
> applications - with a good XML database you don't need SQL, you don't
> need an OODBMS (XML-Data bindings do the OO part, the data store does
> the dirty work), you don't need much of anything. Unfortunately there
> isn't such a thing out there yet.
There _are_ OO-specific databases out there - Oracle have recently (with
8i, I think) started adding an OO layer to their stuff, so you can treat
things as 'objects' inside the db, and let oracle work out how to map that
best. That's hackish, I suspect, but presumably works into their XML
support as well. Would not the OODBMS's of this world put you a good way
toward this?
My attitude is still that databases do some things really well - storing
data, and for relationals, working out what links to what - and while they
may not be _ideal_ for muds, the chance of any given mud thrashing any
given database is still pretty slim at the moment. It seems as though db's
are generally a win over flat text files, so even if you use them as a
strange sort of disk space, they're a win - let alone abstracting and
playing with some of the other tricks they'd allow.
>
> Sigh.
What he said ;)
KevinL
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<li><strong><A NAME="00245" HREF="msg00245.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#kanga,nu></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00112" HREF="msg00112.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Laurent Bossavit" <bossavit#cybercable,fr></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>RE: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00108" HREF="msg00108.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>,
Sellers, Michael <a href="mailto:MSellers#maxis,com">MSellers#maxis,com</a>, Mon 17 Jan 2000, 22:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00111" HREF="msg00111.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>,
Greg Miller <a href="mailto:gmiller#classic-games,com">gmiller#classic-games,com</a>, Mon 17 Jan 2000, 22:27 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00112" HREF="msg00112.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>,
Laurent Bossavit <a href="mailto:bossavit#cybercable,fr">bossavit#cybercable,fr</a>, Mon 17 Jan 2000, 23:51 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00113" HREF="msg00113.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>,
Dream Weaver at home <a href="mailto:windminstrel#home,net">windminstrel#home,net</a>, Tue 18 Jan 2000, 02:18 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00115" HREF="msg00115.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>,
Kevin Littlejohn <a href="mailto:darius#connect,com.au">darius#connect,com.au</a>, Tue 18 Jan 2000, 07:01 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00245" HREF="msg00245.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: Databases</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sun 30 Jan 2000, 21:45 GMT
</LI>
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</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00096" HREF="msg00096.html">[MUD-Dev] Databases (was Re: Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases)</A></strong>,
Charles Hughes <a href="mailto:charles.hughes#bigfoot,com">charles.hughes#bigfoot,com</a>, Sun 16 Jan 2000, 01:56 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00242" HREF="msg00242.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Databases (was Re: Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases)</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sun 30 Jan 2000, 21:21 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00099" HREF="msg00099.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Databases (was Re: Commercial-use Restrictions on Code Bases)</A></strong>,
cg <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Sun 16 Jan 2000, 18:59 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
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