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<H1>RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Geoffrey A. MacDougall" <<A HREF="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:46:58 -0500</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<ADDRESS>Title: <STRONG>RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</STRONG></ADDRESS>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>matt wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> I'm curious, how do you (or do you propose) choose the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> players? It sounds</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> to me like you are talking about some sort of populist democratic</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> system? (correct me if I'm wrong please.) What happens when </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> they elect the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> mud equivalent of hitler, and he decides that all Dwarves </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> should be kicked</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> off. Or, worse yet, what happens if the player who is at the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> top of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> hierarchy decides hr is going to quit, and is going to go out </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> with a bang? </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Checks and balances. Limitations on power. Certain acts require the consent of multiple administrators...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> I suppose though that it's not completely a matter of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> gettting the best</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> administrators, but also of giving the playerbase a feeling of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> empowerment.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Interesting phrasing - because a _feeling_ of empowererment is, by definition, not necessarily the same thing as empowerment. Is it possible to grant a user base the feeling of empowerment without actually surrendering control?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Has this strategy ever been successfully applied?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> It's not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> so easy as just letting them vote straight out though, and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> then vesting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> all legislative/executive/judiciary power in one hierarchy, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> because you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> will end up with tyranny of the majority.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>An effective charter of rights (as defined in my previous posting) goes a long way in avoiding these problems...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> That method is also </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> poor (and I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> think this is a major failing of American-style democracy) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> because it does</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> not allow people to indicate HOW strongly they feel about </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> something. What</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> if 40% of your players are rabidly pro-player-killing, 15% </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> are rabidly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> anti-player-killing, 5% who don't really care but if pressed will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> pro-player-killing because they are speciest and want to kill all</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Dwarves, and 40% don't really care, but if pressed, will say</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> they are anti-player-killing, because their aunt got killed once (by a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Dwarf, no doubt) when she logged into a mud? (I'm not saying this is a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> realistic breakdown of this particular issue)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> So, let's define people who are rabidly either way as being people who</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> care enough to quit your mud if things go against them, while the ones</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> more towards the middle might get a bit disgruntled, but </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> don't care enough</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> to stop playing.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Then, in this case, even though, when it came to a straight vote, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> anti-player-killers would win (assuming everyone votes, which </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> may be close</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> or far from what actually happens, depending on how important the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> electorate takes politics), the anti-player-killers would </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> win, with 55% of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the vote. However, this does not accurately represent the way this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> community thinks about things. In this case, the majority </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> vote would cost</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> you 40% of your player-base, while had it swung the other </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> day, only 15%</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> would have quit. This is an extreme situation of course, but </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the principle</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> is applicable. How to resolve this issue is not simple. Books </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> have been</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> written on how to avoid Madison's probolem of majority tyranny.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Two points - </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>1. The problem you've just outlined only arises if every member of the commmunity is forced to vote. Voting, for the most part, is optional IRL. The same must be even more true in MUDs, because forcing a vote will alienate the large majority of your players who are there to hack 'n slash or chat, and who don't really care about the way the MUD is governed. So, if, by your example, only 55% of your population holds a strong opinion on the matter, chances are that your voter turnout will not be much more than that. (Assuming mildly-opinionated voters will be balanced by strongly-opinionated non-voters.) So... To determined the interests of the population, hold a vote. To determine how strongly that opinion is held, make voting optional, or go one step further and make it a slight hassle to place your vote. Only dedicated lobbyists will go to out-of game web-pages, and jump though additional hoops to make their opinions known.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>The solution I've just proposed is not a particularly unique or original one, as the two variables I describe - the results of the vote, and the number of voters - are already used by pundits in this very manner. In Canada, at least, voter turnout is relatively high in federal elections, while very few people vote in municipal elections. This leads to the conclusion that international trade policy is generally held to be more important, and elicit stronger opinions then what day my garbage is collected. (No offense to any would-be municipal politicians in this group. :p )</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Holding separate ballots on different occassions for each issue is also a way to ensure that people don't voice an opinion about issues that they don't really care about.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> As</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> politically correct as it is to hate special interest groups </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> in American</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> politics (sorry to be nation-specific, but it's what I'm most familiar</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> with), they do help to more accurately represent the true majority</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> _preference_ of the community. They essentially magnify the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> influence of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> their members by organizing and collection donations, which </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> are then used</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> to affect the electoral process. They effectively magnify the voice of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> those who care enough to donate/participate in the special interest</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> groups, thus reflecting that those people care extra about </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> those issues.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>And 2. Is there a way to build this extra influence into the system?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Ex - Some race car games artificially enhance the capabilities of vehicles being driven by players who are falling off the pace. The idea is to level the playing field, so that the players battle it out on the turns throughout the course of the entire race, instead of having the race won off the starting line - the assumption being that the former scenario is more fun.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Is this kind of idea applicable in a MUD? Avoid the tyranny of the majority by playing with the odds to grant the minority an advantage? This tactic is already applied on a micro scale - ex. NPCs don't help Necromancers so make their spells more powerful - but can it be applied to the community at large?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Geoffrey</FONT>
</P>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00221" HREF="msg00221.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matthew Mihaly <diablo#best,com></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00205" HREF="msg00205.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 06:37 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00208" HREF="msg00208.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Fri 21 Jan 2000, 07:16 GMT
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</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00215" HREF="msg00215.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 22 Jan 2000, 05:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00216" HREF="msg00216.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Sat 22 Jan 2000, 06:51 GMT
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<LI><strong><A NAME="00220" HREF="msg00220.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Geoffrey A. MacDougall <a href="mailto:geoffrey#poptronik,com">geoffrey#poptronik,com</a>, Mon 24 Jan 2000, 02:49 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00221" HREF="msg00221.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Mon 24 Jan 2000, 03:32 GMT
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<LI><strong><A NAME="00222" HREF="msg00222.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#realtime,net">cat#realtime,net</a>, Mon 24 Jan 2000, 04:35 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00223" HREF="msg00223.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Mon 24 Jan 2000, 05:33 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00227" HREF="msg00227.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Community Relations</A></strong>,
Lovecraft <a href="mailto:dave#darkages,com">dave#darkages,com</a>, Fri 28 Jan 2000, 02:40 GMT
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