<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI? --> <!--X-From-R13: "Xba O. Znzoreg" <wyflfvapNvk.argpbz.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:55:03 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 009901befc0d$c4718160$020101df@JonLambert --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monste</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00276.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00277.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00271.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00293.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00275">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00275">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00275">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: "Jon A. Lambert" <<A HREF="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:26:01 -0400</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> From: Sellers, Michael <MSellers#maxis,com> >Jon Lambert wrote: >> Is it theoretically possible that there are many more immature >> anti-PKers than immature pro-PKers? >> Is the inability to deal with or handle harassment, violence, or offensive >> behavior without recourse to authority a sign of immaturity or stunted >> emotional development? > >Typically, lashing out at others without provocation or merely to get a >thrill at someone else's expense or misery is seen as self-centered and >self-absorbed, and thus as immature. You might be assuming that all harassment, violence and offensive behavior belong to the category of "senseless". I acknowledge that there is a subset of players who will commit the above for pleasure and perhaps some are IRL morally repugnant. However there are many other possible motivations for performing a non-consential PvP action against another character. Violence, harassment and offensive behavior can be justifiable and sensible in many situations. And not just in an RP context. > Wanting to be able to get some >entertainment *without* being harassed by others isn't (who's more likely to >be seen as obnoxious and immature -- the guy in line at Disneyland who keeps >smacking another person in the back of the head for kicks, or the person who >tries to get the smacker tossed out of the park?). So right off the bat, >PKing behavior puts the PKer at sort of a moral disadvantage, no matter what >the actual maturity levels involved are. The person being smacked in the head has chosen one of many possible options. Appeal to authority. I submit that reflexive appeal to authority is as emotionally immature as reflexive violence. In fact, I believe it is moreso. >A lot of this is context-dependant of course. I love a good paintball game >(arguably the closest you're going to come to consensual PKing in this >life!), and sometimes even a good game of Quake. But in situations like >this, everyone going into it knows that the "harassment" of being smacked by >somebody else *is* the game. Nod. I just posted on some finer grain distinctions reference Quake of all things. :) >In a MUD, a lot of the appeal for many/most players is the social nature of >the entertainment. Some MUDs carry this so far as to eliminate PKing as >part of the game system (but most of those in this discussion seem to have >discarded that possibility -- I certainly have). Thus, there is some >expectation of not being used as a punching bag for someone else; where's >the entertainment in that? This is important! Note that most often emotionally-charged entertainment- draining negative mud experiences occur because of non-consential PvP social actions. Thus my earlier comment about the emotionally immature non-PKers are perhaps more numerous than PKers. The presence or absence of game-mechanics which enable PvP game actions might have no bearing on the enjoyability of the mud. The more emotionally immature your non-PK audience is, the more frequent "appeals to authority". I suspect "appeals to authority" are may well be less frequent on games that allow PvP. >The delicate balance that a lot of mud-designers want to reach is that where >the entertainment value of the potential danger of being PK'ed exists, >without allowing PKing to take over the game and swamp any other sources of >enjoyment or entertainment. PKing should be possible, but not without risk, >cost, or recourse. And other forms of competitive behavior should be >possible too. IMHO. Sure...Bartles clubs/hearts relationships. I posit that weaning one's hearts from the teat of administrative nannies may be more effective in producing an enjoyable game than expending energy on the perceived club problem. A game with weak hearts is far less enjoyable than game with strong hearts. OK. Enough punning around. :) -- J. Lambert _______________________________________________ MUD-Dev maillist - MUD-Dev#kanga,nu <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00293" HREF="msg00293.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Matthew Mihaly <diablo#best,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00276.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00277.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00271.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00293.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00275"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00275"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00311" HREF="msg00311.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Solmyr of the Azure Star <a href="mailto:solmyr#kolumbus,fi">solmyr#kolumbus,fi</a>, Tue 14 Sep 1999, 23:16 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00265" HREF="msg00265.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Sellers, Michael <a href="mailto:MSellers#maxis,com">MSellers#maxis,com</a>, Sat 11 Sep 1999, 00:35 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00268" HREF="msg00268.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Solmyr of the Azure Star <a href="mailto:solmyr#kolumbus,fi">solmyr#kolumbus,fi</a>, Sat 11 Sep 1999, 02:29 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00271" HREF="msg00271.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Mon 13 Sep 1999, 17:51 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00275" HREF="msg00275.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Mon 13 Sep 1999, 17:55 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00293" HREF="msg00293.html">Re: Re[2]: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Mon 13 Sep 1999, 22:22 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00277" HREF="msg00277.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Mik Clarke <a href="mailto:mikclrk#ibm,net">mikclrk#ibm,net</a>, Mon 13 Sep 1999, 17:56 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00299" HREF="msg00299.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Tue 14 Sep 1999, 01:16 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00300" HREF="msg00300.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] The Relationship between pkers and monster AI?</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Tue 14 Sep 1999, 01:30 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>