<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves --> <!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNxnatn.ah> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:12:19 -0800 --> <!--X-Message-Id: E10E2qS-0005VD-00#koala,kanga.nu --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Pine.BSI.4.05L.9902191024030.6553-100000#matrix,eden.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00474.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00476.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00472.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00487.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00475">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00475">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00475">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:12:43 -0800</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu">mud-dev-admin#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:30:54 -0600 (CST) Wes Connell<wconnell#eden,com> wrote: > How instead of an actual breaking point for permadeath just allow a > certain amount of lives. Sorta like a video game. I've never seen > that imp'd into a mud before. When you are a newbie you recieve > three lives. After they are all used up you die. Quests could be > used to give extra lives and such. I've heard of this being done, and have read of cases here, but have never played on such a system. I suspect abuse would be a signigicant problem. > The problem that I see with a permadeath breaking point is that you > would hardly ever see any characters over level XX. On the permadeath games I've played this has not been the case. Players with any significant advancement however were extremely protective of and careful with their characters however. The term "paranoid" comes to mind. Low level players have little to lose. High level players have everything to lose and know very exactly how easy it is to lose. This breeds a certain caution and distrust ("Will they do to me what I did when I was in their place?"). I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, tho I expect it will help that I'm working hard to make reactive defence far more effective than attack. Certainly permadeath actively discourages socialisation unless there are other externally enforced safety measures (eg sanctums). I wonder what the impact of opt-in pre-defined trust systems would be? Say allowing something like: > l Bubba is here. Bubba says, "Okay, I'll trust you. Let's make a peace treaty." > say Okay. Bubba has declared a peace treaty with you. Do you want to match it? Until you do Bubba can still attack you. >> yes You have declared a peace treaty with Bubba. You are now physically incapable of directly attacking each other. ...later... > attack bubba You can't attack bubba, you have a peace treaty with him. ...later... Bubba has broken his peace treaty with you. He may attack you at any time! The treaty structure really does almost nothing but impose some mechanics and auto-warning to the other side. > On non-permadeath muds that allow pkilling only after a certain > level XX, the newbies coming out of the saftey get a very rude > awakening when they a slaughtered like the fresh meat they are. I'm still wondering why this doesn't take place on the permadeath games I've played. I have a suspicion it was because most players effectively played solo most of the time, or only with other players they knew personally or had other reasons to explicitly trust. Certainly the player density was rarely high (three players in a room was a crowd, four was a mob, five or more and you were effectively guaranteed that nobody would touch anybody or else they'd instantly get the lot of them as immediate enemies). > It might allow for a 'smoother' transition if they could still die > as a newbie, but just give them a buffer. =] I'm fond of defining three types of death: 1) You failed to survive (eg PK'ed, killed by an NPC). 2) The game killed you for doing something stupid (eg you walked off the edge of a cliff). 3) The game killed you for doing something that was likely not an error or stupidity on your part (eg failed a dexterity check and plummeted from a rope bridge). I like to treat them separately. #1 I see as the normal permadeath style: character deleted with no hope or chance of resurrection. #2 gives a low probability chance of resurrection, but it is expensive, and time consuming. #3 Either just resets the character, or places them behind a problem they must solve to re-enter the game. Given my separation of bodies and characters, and the fact that characters may simultaneously control multiple bodies, much of this doesn't map well for me. Death only becomes a concern for me when a character loses ownership of all its bodies and retains no partial ownership any bodies either. This is a little different from the chance encounter killing the 2,000 hour character. On the level of wht can be done to prevent it, it requires active carelessness to really die. As such I expect most deaths to be accidental -- somebody forgot how close they were to having no reserve bodies and got caught out. That given, running more than one body is a pain, so there's an active and motivating force to minimise the number of bodies any one character controls. Even running a spare "sleeper" body that just exists to ensure that you can't be killed outright is a drag. Play testing will reveal what really happens. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#kanga,nu ----------(*) Internet: coder#kanga,nu ...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... _______________________________________________ MUD-Dev maillist - MUD-Dev#kanga,nu <A HREF="http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev">http://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev</A> </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00487" HREF="msg00487.html">[MUD-Dev] Theories was Re: pet peeves</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Wes Connell <wconnell#eden,com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00467" HREF="msg00467.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Wes Connell <wconnell#eden,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00474.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00476.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: State of the art?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00472.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00487.html">[MUD-Dev] Theories was Re: pet peeves</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00475"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00475"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Elder Games</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00565" HREF="msg00565.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Elder Games</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Sat 13 Mar 1999, 08:59 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00573" HREF="msg00573.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Elder Games</A></strong>, Martin C Sweitzer <a href="mailto:msew+@andrew.cmu.edu">msew+@andrew.cmu.edu</a>, Sun 14 Mar 1999, 01:03 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00580" HREF="msg00580.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Elder Games</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Sat 13 Mar 1999, 23:31 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00472" HREF="msg00472.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></strong>, Matthew Mihaly <a href="mailto:diablo#best,com">diablo#best,com</a>, Fri 19 Feb 1999, 21:02 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00475" HREF="msg00475.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#kanga,nu">claw#kanga,nu</a>, Sat 20 Feb 1999, 03:12 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00487" HREF="msg00487.html">[MUD-Dev] Theories was Re: pet peeves</A></strong>, Wes Connell <a href="mailto:wconnell#eden,com">wconnell#eden,com</a>, Mon 22 Feb 1999, 17:19 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00478" HREF="msg00478.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></strong>, Martin Keegan <a href="mailto:martin#camelot,cyburbia.net.au">martin#camelot,cyburbia.net.au</a>, Sat 20 Feb 1999, 15:52 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00474" HREF="msg00474.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></strong>, greg <a href="mailto:gav101#psu,edu">gav101#psu,edu</a>, Fri 19 Feb 1999, 23:00 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00477" HREF="msg00477.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Re: pet peeves</A></strong>, Neerenberg, AaronX <a href="mailto:aaronx.neerenberg#intel,com">aaronx.neerenberg#intel,com</a>, Sat 20 Feb 1999, 06:25 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>