<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills --> <!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNhaqre.rate.ftv.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:38:38 -0800 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199901160253.SAA50523#under,engr.sgi.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Marcel-1.46-0115221528-d07Ky&5#catling,demon.nl --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00199.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00201.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00193.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00148.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00200">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00200">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00200">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0800</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:15:28 +0000 (GMT) Marian Griffith<gryphon#iaehv,nl> wrote: > On Fri 15 Jan, J C Lawrence wrote: >> Comments on zero-sum games etc are apt and welcome. >> The problem with both of course is that they are demoralising. >> There is no winning, you can only stand still or fall behind. We >> can cover up this flaw in #1 by repainting it as "re-inventing" >> or other cute terms. The principle remains the same however, the >> game is regeared to put everybody back at ground zero -- just >> without making them feel that they've lost in the process >> (concentrate on the new race/game instead of what is lost). > Do not most muds already do just this every time they add new > features, races, classes, areas? They up the levels in some way > by increasing the power level acheivable to players. Yes, but its a finite solution for an infinite problem. 1) Consider a game X where Tiamat has a strength of 100. 2) Players play this game and initially are fleas before Tiamat's might. 3) Later the same players are able to kill Tiamat with some ease. Solution: Change Tiamat's strength to 1,000. Problem: Sooner or later the cycle restarts from #3 and you need to rescale Tiamat. This in turn forms and endless ratrace and all that really changes is the fact that the numbers get bigger -- but the ratios stay (mostly) the same. >> The problem from a game design viewpoint is that #2 is horribly >> expensive. It means that you can't just put a game on >> maintenance, but you have to actually re-write and re-design and >> re-do the whole damn thing with fair frequency, > I am fairly sure I do not understand at all why this must be so. Because every time around the loop yuo essentially have to redesign your game. Just scaling the numbers bigger is a very temproary bandaide. You have to add new features, new races, classes, spells, etc etc etc, all of which require reblancing the game (very non-trivial), active monitoring, and all the other aspects of game redesign. >> What's the key problem? The very concept of the advancement >> scale. It just doesn't work over the long term. It is an >> evolutionary dead end. Why? Because you can't maintain the >> process that drives the advancement scale. No matter how hard >> you try to make and keep the game open ended (which is really >> what I am talking about), sooner or later, and likely far sooner >> than later, burnout beckons. You *have* to divert to softer more >> organic realms where non-deterministic development is more >> important than direct comparison and ranking and linear genetalia >> measuring is no longer your stock in trade. >> Even then atrophy isn't really a solution. All it really does is >> make the scale longer. Now, instead of being able to climb from >> 1 to 100 in simple fashion, you're now walking uphill against >> "atrophy". > True, though if you manage to separate the power level from the > player level it should be more manageable I think. Instead of > concentrating on ways to make characters weaker you can concen- > trate on handling the more socially oriented aspect of player > levels. Exactly. You have to get players off the power-is-everything kick and into less direct interests before the scale runs out. >> Expressive fertility seems like the real key here. Have a look >> at the Walled City in Gibson's Idoru. Look at the general >> handling of virtual reality in the same book. There's a *LOT* of >> careful, detailed, highly imaginative and really really >> engrossing (to the people who created those things) expresiveness >> in there. Look at the construction and details of the shrine/hut >> (I'm working on memory here) where she first meat the Japanese >> fan club contingent. > The problem of course is getting the players to go along with it, > especially if there is a ready way for them to prove their worth > through combat. I'm going to go out on a limb here: I suspect that the main problem with the combat model of most MUDs is that it is survivable. What seems the real solution: Make combat deadly and make combatants very short lived. Yup, there are people who try and live/play by killing things. They don't live long (say a few days RL time), but they make a lot of noise. There are also more moderate players, active in a wide range of areas -- they tend to live far longer due to the lower risk levels. The next problem of course is that typically the non-fighters are perfect and readily available prey for the wanna-be fighters, and due to the nature of their non-combat lives, and so have no defence against the fighters (cf you're wonderful Tailor scenario). Possible address: Defence, even against excellant and skilled attack, is easy and cheap (as long as you are on your own territory), but you *can't* attack while defending. Attack is viciously effective, but only against other attackers. The game tracks your attack/defence actions, much in the manner of UO's reputation system, and players on the negative side can't defend. I'm not happy with this, but it seems a start. Need to think about this some more. >> Advancement scales are fun. That's great, but you have to get >> people off that bandwagon and into more interesting and less >> deterministic affairs before they realise that the ladder ends >> and that there is nowhere to go from there. >> How to do that? Make things other than advancement more and more >> enticing. You don't want it (non-advancement) TOO enticing too >> quickly, as the presence of the scale is important. It gets >> people playing the game and knowledgable about the game and game >> world. > Not to certain this is possible, nor that it is at all important. > You describe something of the average mush where combat mechanisms > are absent or rudimentary at best. Players are interested in those > games and the apparent lack of advancement does not seem to disap- > point them in the least. If the game offers many other things to > do then you should not be surprised that they actually go out and > do them, nor should you feel that is somehow inferior. Combat and > levels need not be the by all and end all of a game. <nod> Understood. However in simple numbers combat MUDs are more popular than MUSHes, and have a much lower barrier to entrance than such MUShes (anybody can figure out Quake, many never did figure out Myst). The trick I'm desribing is how to attempt to make a low-barrier-to-entrence combat game that later, as the players continue to play, mutates into a more MUSh-style game FOR THAT PLAYER. The goal is player retention. Combat players burn out, move on, get bored. Softer players last longer and make you more $$$. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#kanga,nu (Contractor) Internet: coder#kanga,nu ---------(*) Internet: claw#under,engr.sgi.com ...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00193" HREF="msg00193.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00199.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00201.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00193.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00148.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00200"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00200"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00142" HREF="msg00142.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, Caliban Tiresias Darklock <a href="mailto:caliban#darklock,com">caliban#darklock,com</a>, Wed 13 Jan 1999, 22:54 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00147" HREF="msg00147.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Wed 13 Jan 1999, 23:37 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00179" HREF="msg00179.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 15 Jan 1999, 02:07 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00193" HREF="msg00193.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 15 Jan 1999, 21:34 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00200" HREF="msg00200.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 16 Jan 1999, 03:38 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00148" HREF="msg00148.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Wed 13 Jan 1999, 23:39 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00155" HREF="msg00155.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Thu 14 Jan 1999, 01:25 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00156" HREF="msg00156.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 14 Jan 1999, 01:31 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00164" HREF="msg00164.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Levels versus Skills, who uses them and when.</A></strong>, Holly Sommer <a href="mailto:hsommer#micro,ti.com">hsommer#micro,ti.com</a>, Thu 14 Jan 1999, 19:03 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>