chapter 5 "The Great Heat Radiation Debate, December 1999"
Cast of Characters:
Cratylus, a self-righteous know-it-all UNIX engineer
Thorr, some high school kid
Hermogenes, a wiseacre aerospace computer scientist
Part I is seen through the eyes of Cratylus
in the same room as Hermogenes. During the conversation,
Thorr interjects some unrelated stuff through
the <cre> communications channel.
Part II is again seen through the eyes of
Cratylus, but this time Hermogenes and Cratylus are
in different rooms, and communicate through
the <admin> channel.
PART I
------
Hermogenes says, "Or whatever they call em."
Hermogenes asks, "But thats defined by the server?"
You say, "Its mudos dependent."
Hermogenes asks, "Like, number of cycles per second or something?"
You say, "Depends what parameters it was compiled with, and what gets passed to it in config and startup."
You say, "Yeah."
Hermogenes asks, "Yoou can set it to whatever you want?"
You say, "I imagine so."
Hermogenes says, "Like, i want 10 tics per second of processor time."
Hermogenes says, "Hmm."
Hermogenes asks, "Why couldnt My Big Game run similarly to a mud?"
Frontiers has been up for 2w 6d 5h 10m 37s.
You say, "I dont really understand your question."
Hermogenes says, "In my game thing..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 people in current sort Eastern time: Mon Dec 27 14:24:40 1999
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
253 D - Cratylus sun-barr.Sun.CO ~cratylus/workroom
100 D - (Frontiers) cv ~frontiers/workroom
24 D - Hermogenes macpub800.gsfc. ~cratylus/workroom
2 h - Thorr sailor.lib.md.u ^campus/room/wiz_loung
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frontiers
Hermogenes says, "Could i just have the server listening for commands..."
Hermogenes asks, "And stuff happens in 'tics'?"
You say, "You tell me."
Hermogenes says, "YEAH."
Hermogenes says, "I WILL."
You say, "Heh."
Hermogenes says, "Yeah."
Hermogenes says, "Doin it."
You say, "Yeah."
You say, "Doin it."
Hermogenes says, "Iiiiii saw YOU."
Hermogenes says, "Im almost tempted to listen to that right nw."
Hermogenes wants to know the diff between convection, conduction, and radiation
Hermogenes exclaims, "NnnnnNNNNNOW!!!"
You say, "Hmm."
Hermogenes takes off his shoe and starts banging it on the table
You say, "Convection is about temperature-related airflow."
Hermogenes says, "Classic stalin."
Hermogenes says, "Or lenin."
You say, "Kruschev."
Hermogenes says, "Ohhh yeah."
Hermogenes says, "I think some older guy did it, too."
Hermogenes says, "Aaanyways."
Hermogenes asks, "Convection is ONLY concerned with gaseous heat transfer?"
You say, "Prolly not."
Hermogenes says, "B'oh."
You say, "I imagine liquids have similar properties."
Hermogenes says, "I could ask on IG..."
Hermogenes says, "But i dont wanna know THAT bad."
You ask, "Why not look it up?"
Hermogenes says, "Pfah."
Hermogenes says, "Thats yer answer to EVERYthing."
You say, "Heh."
Hermogenes says, "Shoot."
Hermogenes says, "Im so used to stopping the initial loading of my homepage."
Hermogenes says, "But this time i WANTED it."
Hermogenes says, "Heh, this keychain has a y2k countdown timer on it..."
You say, "Anyways convection currents are useful knowledge to aviators and boat people."
Hermogenes says, "Only 4 days left on it."
Hermogenes says, "E has a convection oven..."
You say, "Vultures can ride "thermals" for hours without flapping their wings."
Hermogenes says, "Fuggin lazy bums."
You say, "Ans for submarines, thermocline layers are important acoustic landmarks."
Hermogenes nods solemnly.
Hermogenes says, "I remember goin out in th boat with my dad."
Hermogenes says, "Hed drive, id watch the sonar thingie."
Hermogenes says, "Id occassionally see thermocline layers."
You say, "Well there ya go."
Hermogenes says, "Conduction = opaque solids."
You ask, "Ya heat transfer huh?"
Hermogenes says, "Convection = solid surface in contact with moving liquid or gases."
Hermogenes says, "Ya, heat transfer."
Hermogenes says, "I mean, i KNEW it was heat transfer."
You say, "And i guess radiation is the transfer of heat energy from solid to gas."
Hermogenes says, "I just dint know what set them apart."
Hermogenes says, "Well..."
You say, "Well u cant radiate heat in aa vacuum."
Hermogenes says, "Substandces cdont hafta be touching."
Hermogenes says, "In radiation heat transferrence."
Hermogenes says, "Actually..."
Hermogenes says, "I was about to saty...."
You say, "Well its gotta touch SOMETHING."
Hermogenes says, "This process is different from both conduction and convection, because the substances exchanging heat need not be touching and can even be
separated by a vacuum."
Hermogenes says, "Bplhtplhtlt."
You say, "Doesnt make sense to me."
You say, "Explain how u can radiate heat in aa vacuum."
Hermogenes asks, "Cantcha transmit heat over a vaccuum?"
You say, "No."
Hermogenes asks, "What about th sun?"
You say, "Thats the whole idea behind thermoses."
You say, "Thats aa different KIND of radiation."
Hermogenes asks, "Space != complETE vaccuum?"
You say, "The sun is particle radiation."
Hermogenes says, "Thermoses dont complETELY stop heat loss."
You say, "And em."
You say, "Well cuz theyre not comPLETE vacuums."
Hermogenes says, "Hmm."
Hermogenes says, "I cant really argue with ya, since i dont know much about it in the foist place."
You shrug.
You say, "No like im aa textbook."
You say, "I just dont see how you could radiate heat in aa vacuum."
You say, "Except in electrmagnetic wave form."
Hermogenes asks, "Microwave?"
You say, "Like, if i got shot out of an airlock, right."
Thorr <cre> > what happened to haderach
Hermogenes <cre> > hmm
Hermogenes <cre> > hes on here oCASSIOanlly
Hermogenes <cre> > not all THAT often
You say, "Im 98.something degrees."
Thorr <cre> > yeah.. he is not even a character tho
Hermogenes <cre> > if ya email ed hima and told him other people were interested in workin on the mud, he might show up more frequently
You say, "If u put aa thermometer RIGHT next to me."
You say, "Without touching."
Hermogenes listens
You say, "I doubt it would be affected."
Hermogenes asks, "At ALL?"
You ask, "How could it?"
You say, "If i was radioactive, sure."
Hermogenes asks, "The IR energy radiatinfg from yer body?"
You say, "Like i said, eventually u would cool down through em emmission."
You say, "But thats not the kind of radiation theyre talkin about."
Hermogenes says, "A law formulated by German physicist Max Planck in 1900 states, in
part, that all substances emit radiant energy simply because they have a
positive absolute temperature."
You say, "Like i SAID."
Hermogenes asks, "Er, so ther?"
You say, "Like i said, eventually u would cool down through em emmission."
You say, "But thats not the kind of radiation theyre talkin about."
Hermogenes says, "Electromagnetic emmission?."
Hermogenes says, "Ymean, in the IR range?."
Hermogenes says, "Im not tryin to nit pick, im tryin to understand yer explanation."
You say, "Ok."
You say, "A warm coal radiates heat."
You say, "Because its warm."
You say, "And it warms the air around it."
Thorr <cre> > i gotta do some actual work.. bbl
<cre> > Thorr waves.
You say, "This is the kind of radiation that I mean when i say heat radiation."
Hermogenes <cre> > see ya
<cre> > Cratylus waves.
Hermogenes says, "Right."
[Thorr quits]
You say, "Absent air, were talkin about aa different kind of radiation."
Hermogenes says, "Transmitting of energy in the infrared range = heat."
You say, "That i would tend NOT to call "heat radiation"."
You say, "But electromagnetic radiation."
You say, "Which is aa whole other can o beans."
Hermogenes says, "Mmm, beans."
You say, "SO."
You say, "When u say convection, conduction, radiation."
You say, "I do not think em radiation."
You ask, "See my point?"
Hermogenes asks, "But.. isnt IR within the EM spectrum?"
You say, "EXACTLY."
You say, "The coal MAY be radiating ir, but thats not what im talking about."
Hermogenes says, "'youd NOT call it 'heat radiation', but you WOULD call it 'EM radiation'."
You say, "Yes."
Hermogenes says, "Even though, heat radiation == IR radiation."
You say, "Bullshit."
Hermogenes says, "Ok ok."
Hermogenes says, "Sorry."
You shrug.
You say, "I disagree with that statement."
Hermogenes asks, "Yer sayin for het to be radiat4d, there hasta be air, in the example of the coal?"
You say, "I think u can also see it as patently false."
You say, "Right."
Hermogenes says, "No need to jump all over my case, im just tryin to understand how yer percieving the problem."
You say, "Now, if my definition of heat radiation is mistaken, then thats something else."
Hermogenes says, "O K then."
You say, "But i do not equate infrared radiation with heat radiation."
Hermogenes asks, "Whyzzat?"
Hermogenes says, "Not that im arguing, im just wonmdering why you say that."
Hermogenes says, "Sir."
You emote: Cratylus is confused.
You ask, "Why WOULD you say that?"
Hermogenes says, "Mebbe my understanding of "heat" is incorrect."
You say, "What makes u think heat radiation == IR radiation."
You say, "Well im curious why u think that."
Hermogenes breaks down and starts to cry
You say, "Dont mean to jump all over yer case."
Hermogenes says, "I thought..."
You say, "I just dont see where youd think that."
Hermogenes says, "What as an object transmits more n more energy..."
Hermogenes says, "It starts to transmit it in different areas of the EM spectrum."
You say, "Ok."
You ask, "Why do you equate heat with energy?"
Hermogenes asks, "Right|wrong?"
Hermogenes says, "B... b... be-cause..."
You shrug.
You say, "Again, i could be dead wrong."
Hermogenes asks, "Heat is what we perceive IR energy as?"
You say, "Erm."
You say, "Well i dont think heat is about perception."
Hermogenes says, "Or not."
You say, "I think heat is about molecular motion."
Hermogenes says, "Right...."
You say, "And for that to transfer."
You say, "U need molecules."
You say, "Hence, no vacuum."
Hermogenes says, "You cant have a PERFECT vaccuum, though."
Hermogenes says, "But thats a different topic."
You say, "So you can see why i would disagree with your source."
Hermogenes says, "Im still tryin to figure out why (hea == IR) is false."
You say, "Explain to me why it is true."
Hermogenes yields
You hmm.
Hermogenes says, "Im sorry, i cant argue."
Hermogenes is at a loss for words currently
Hermogenes says, "No fense, i mean."
You say, "Well im sure there is aa relationship between heat and ir, but i do not see these as being the same thing."
You shrug.
You say, "You may be right."
You say, "But i doubt it."
Hermogenes shrugs.
Hermogenes says, "Heh."
You smirk.
Hermogenes says, "Ya just HAD to throw that disclaimer in tehre, DINT cha."
Try "help index" for a list of command types.
You emote: Cratylus snickers.
Hermogenes says, "Cool page, so far:."
Hermogenes says, "Http://www.ipac.caltech.edu/Outreach/Edu/infrared.html."
Hermogenes says, "The primary source of infrared radiation is heat or thermal radiation."
You say, "So then they are NOT the same thing, right."
Hermogenes says, "Ok, mebbe i was not conveying my thoughts too well."
You say, "Just because i arrive in aa car doesnt mean im aa car."
Hermogenes says, "Ya friggin car."
Hermogenes says, "For example, hot charcoal may not give off light
but it does emit infrared radiation which we feel as heat."
You ask, "Ok. what does that illustrate?"
Hermogenes says, "The more energy an object is giving off..."
Hermogenes says, "The higher up in the em spectrum it can be perceived at."
You ask, "Mmhmmm?"
Hermogenes says, "In."
Hermogenes says, "Of."
You say, "Ok."
You ask, "So how does that prove that heat radiation works in aa vacuum?"
Hermogenes is lookin at the creepy kitty picture on that page
Hermogenes says, "I."
Hermogenes says, "Dont."
Hermogenes says, "KNOW."
You emote: Cratylus calls off the dogs.
You say, "Sorry."
You say, "I get very focused."
Hermogenes says, "But aPPARRENTLY, with "radiation" heat transfer, objects dont HAFTA be touching."
You say, "If there is air between them, i agree."
Hermogenes says, "And yknow."
Hermogenes says, "Mebbe these 3 types of transference isnt JUST heat transfer."
Hermogenes says, "Mebbe they mean ENERGY transfer."
Hermogenes says, "But i think they DO mean heat transferrence."
You say, "Me too."
Hermogenes says, "Which doesnt really settle nuttin."
Hermogenes says, "That DOES it."
You say, "Well it settles that theyre wrong."
Hermogenes says, "W."
Hermogenes says, "We must ask the sages of IG."
You say, "Heh."
Hermogenes asks, "Ya want to?"
You say, "Ohhh mighty oracle..."
Hermogenes says, "Or, naaah."
You say, "If u want garbage, go ahead."
Hermogenes asks, "Didja see the creepy kitty pic yet?"
You say, "Ya."
You say, "Blue prolly can say."
Hermogenes says, "SOMEtimes, ig has some answers."
Hermogenes says, "Im gunan try it."
Hermogenes says, "No WAIT."
Hermogenes says, "Im about to head over to other building."
Hermogenes says, "Ill try in an hour or so."
You say, "Well im goin home fairly soonish."
Hermogenes says, "But i gotta formulate the correct question, foist."
You say, "If you find credible documentation of yer crackpot theory lemme know."
Hermogenes asks, ""can heat be transferred in a vaccuum?" ?"
You say, "No."
You say, "That is not quite the question."
Hermogenes says, "Ok, then what."
Hermogenes asks, "What IS the question?"
Hermogenes says, "Say it."
Hermogenes exclaims, "SAY IT!!!"
You ask, "Is infrared radiation heat?"
Hermogenes says, "I THINK it means./..."
Hermogenes says, "Em radiation transmitting .."
Hermogenes says, "Phone."
You say, "Because OBVIOUSLY heat is transferred in aa vacuum."
You say, "But what were talking about is HEAT RADIATION."
Hermogenes scribbles in his memo pad.
You say, "Thats right. you DO yer homework."
Hermogenes says, "Btplhpbtplbpt."
Hermogenes says, "Im "writing down" the url to that page."
Hermogenes says, "With the kitty poicture on it."
Hermogenes says, "I THINK, its saying..."
Hermogenes says, "EM radiation transmitting at X frequency is perceived by us as "heat"."
You say, "That sounds about right yeah."
Hermogenes says, "Just like something rtansmitting between X and Y nm is perceived as "light"."
You say, "Sounds right so far."
Hermogenes says, "So..."
You ask, "So...?"
Hermogenes asks, "Would you argue that something transmitting in the visible portion of the em spectrum is|isNOT light?"
You say, "I find your parallel flawed."
You say, "The definition of heat and the definition of light are very different."
Hermogenes says, "Well, of COURSE its flawed."
Hermogenes says, ""how so?" :)."
You say, "Ok, walk through this with me."
Hermogenes attempts patience...
You say, "Heat is molecules moving, aka brownian motion."
Hermogenes says, "Heat is kinetic energy of molecules in motion, ook."
You say, "Heat radiation occurs when molecules of aa lower "temperature" touch molecules of aa higher "temperature"."
You say, "Now."
Hermogenes says, "So how can they transfer heat when theres no molecules to bump into."
Hermogenes says, "Ok."
You say, "If there is aa vacuum between these two objects of differing temperatures."
You say, "On MAY be warmed up by the other."
You say, "I dont dispute that."
You say, "But it would be warmed up not by HEAT radiation, since "HEAT" is not radiated through aa vacuum."
Hermogenes says, "BUT."
You say, "It would be warmed up by the effects of ir radiation."
Hermogenes says, "Theres doesns not exIST a perfect vacuumm."
You say, "Dude you must join me."
You say, "We dont have these objects either."
Hermogenes says, "Mebbe the few molecules in the non-perfect vaccuum are enough to transfer the heat or somerthin."
You say, "Nor do they possess frickin laser beams."
Hermogenes asks, "Yer sayin in a THEORHETICAL vaccuum?"
You say, "In MY world, when u talk about aa vacuum, its aa vacuum."
You ask, "Yer book...did it specify an imperfect vacuum?"
Hermogenes says, "I mean, are you arguing on a pure le."
Hermogenes says, "Ok, you are."
Hermogenes says, "Yes, it did."
You say, "Well then its not aa vacuum."
You say, "Its aa vacuum or its not."
You say, "U cant have both."
Hermogenes says, "It said somthin like "a perfect vaccuum cant be created, even with the best equipment, etc etc"."
You say, "Well fuckin aa DU."
You say, "DUH if theres shit flyin around in there sure there can be heat transfer."
Hermogenes says, "So, this brings me back to their assertion of objects not having to touch."
Hermogenes says, "For heat transfer."
You say, "But that totally defeats the idea of heat radiation in aa vacuum."
Hermogenes says, "Ok, point taken."
You say, "They DO touch, indirectly, through the flying molecules in yer imperfect vacuum."
Hermogenes asks, "Why bother making up a law of thermal transferrence if the environment will never exist?"
Try "help index" for a list of command types.
Hermogenes says, "For such a law."
You emote: Cratylus blinks.
[Thorr logs in]
Hermogenes says, "Okokok,."
You ask, "U joking?"
Thorr <cre> > lo
Hermogenes says, "I hate to do this."
Cratylus <cre> > oi
Hermogenes <cre> > ey
Hermogenes asks, "Can i "pause" this discussion?"
You say, "I thought we just agreed i was right."
Hermogenes asks, "Or do i forfeit all claims by leaving the table right now?"
You shrug.
You say, "I thought u just agreed with me."
Thorr <cre> > is it worth creating an area.. or is the new lib gonna cancel out anytyhing i do?
Hermogenes says, "Lol."
Cratylus <cre> > hold off
Thorr <cre> > anything that is
Thorr <cre> > ok
Thorr <cre> > what exactly is gonna change ??
Hermogenes <cre> > you might wanna start PLANNING out an area, but hold off on the actual coding of it
Cratylus <cre> > everything
Thorr <cre> > whoa
Hermogenes <cre> > it will shake the very foundation of life as you know it
Thorr <cre> > hehe
Cratylus <cre> > it might even radiate heat in aa vacuum
Hermogenes <cre> > heat will even transfer over a vaccuum, in the new mud lib
Hermogenes <cre> > hahahahaha
Try "help index" for a list of command types.
Cratylus <cre> > :)
Thorr <cre> > heh
Hermogenes <cre> > dammit, quit stealin all my material
Cratylus <cre> > i gotta hit the road ill be back later
Thorr <cre> > k
Thorr <cre> > see ya
Hermogenes <cre> > ya, im goin to new building
Hermogenes says, "Ill be back round 4pm."
Cratylus <cre> > ill be back in 20 or, well pick up this convo
Hermogenes says, "DEFinately."
Hermogenes waves.
Thorr <cre> > ok
<cre> > Cratylus waves.
Please come back another time!
PART II
-------
Hermogenes <admin> bak
Hermogenes <admin> btw, ennytime you wanna pick our conversation bout heat transf3errence, lemme know
Try "help index" for a list of command types.
Cratylus <admin> i thot u agreed with me
Hermogenes <admin> i have NO idea ...
Hermogenes <admin> restate your assertion, please?
Hermogenes <admin> or do you not wanna open that can o worms again
<admin> Cratylus wonders why he always has todo all the splainin.
Hermogenes <admin> or you scaaaared?
Cratylus <admin> ok
Cratylus <admin> ready?
<admin> Hermogenes nods solemnly.
Cratylus <admin> you said heat radiation can occur even through aa vacuum
Cratylus <admin> i disagreed
Hermogenes <admin> i said that cause the web page said that
Hermogenes <admin> but, go on
Cratylus <admin> then u said ir waves WERE heat, hence heat radiation DID go through aa vacuum
Cratylus <admin> i explained that there is aa diff between ir and heat
Hermogenes <admin> but then i changed my thing...
Cratylus <admin> im gettin to it
Hermogenes <admin> to say that 'heat' was how we PERCEIVE ir radiation
Cratylus <admin> you know theres aa transcript
Cratylus <admin> check yer email
Cratylus <admin> go
Hermogenes <admin> jeez, you didnt
Cratylus <admin> now
Hermogenes <admin> ok okok, i will
Cratylus <admin> i KNEW this would happen
Hermogenes <admin> ok, i talked to someone
Hermogenes <admin> hes on one of the...
<admin> Hermogenes hesitates
Cratylus <admin> mmhmm
Hermogenes <admin> science teams
Cratylus <admin> DON'T SHOOT!
Hermogenes <admin> :)
Hermogenes <admin> and, aPARRENTly...
Hermogenes <admin> a molecule can transfer heat to another molecule withOUT tyouching
Cratylus <admin> yes
Cratylus <admin> i know
Cratylus <admin> i said that aa million fuckin times
Cratylus <admin> the issue here is not wether there is heat transfer dude
Hermogenes <admin> so, molecule A can heat molecule B without touching
Cratylus <admin> yes
Cratylus <admin> agreed
Cratylus <admin> but not through "heat radiation"
Hermogenes <admin> IR emmission
Cratylus <admin> RIGHT
Hermogenes <admin> or IR radiation or whatEVER you wanna call it
Cratylus <admin> which is the WHOLE POINBT of my argument
Cratylus <admin> that you CAN transfer heat thru aa vacuum
Cratylus <admin> but it ISNT "heat radiation"
<admin> Hermogenes waits for the punchline...
Hermogenes <admin> ohhhhh, wait
Hermogenes <admin> i think i see
Cratylus <admin> waddaya mean? what word did you have trouble with?
Hermogenes <admin> your main beef was with the term "heat radiation" as opposed to the more PROPER term of "IR radiation"??
Cratylus <admin> well yes
Cratylus <admin> sort of
<admin> Hermogenes stares at you
Cratylus <admin> not quite tho
<admin> Hermogenes stares at you intently
Cratylus <admin> ok
Cratylus <admin> question
Hermogenes <admin> ok, im HOPING this hasnt been a giant battoe of semantics
Cratylus <admin> do you think ir radiation == heat radiation?
Hermogenes <admin> now, NO, i dont
Cratylus <admin> oK then
Cratylus <admin> that was my point
Hermogenes <admin> i had my terms jumbled up, and
Cratylus <admin> so basically we agree
Hermogenes <admin> aaaahhh
Hermogenes <admin> yes
Hermogenes <admin> so, yer whole POINT was to show how i was WRONG in my useage of the terminology?
Cratylus <admin> you kept sayin stuff that assumed ir == heat, which is not true
Cratylus <admin> the idea was to point out that yer source was not correct
Hermogenes <admin> heat is the term we assign to the perception of IR radiation, just as light is how we descripe the process of seeing photon particles interacting with our eyes, etc
Cratylus <admin> no
Hermogenes <admin> ah HA
Cratylus <admin> that also is not correct
Cratylus <admin> heat is not aa subjective experience
Cratylus <admin> it is aa measurable state of molecular motion
Hermogenes <admin> yer assuming my SOURCE is not correct, when in fact, it could very well be (and probably WAS)my INTERPRETATION of my source
Cratylus <admin> could be
Hermogenes <admin> wait, heat is not a what?
Cratylus <admin> heat is not aa subjective experience
Cratylus <admin> it is aa measurable state of molecular motion
Hermogenes <admin> riiiight, and light isNT?
Cratylus <admin> i dont know why u keep bringing light into this
Hermogenes <admin> i mean, not molecular motion, i mean objectively measurable
Cratylus <admin> im not concerned with light at the moment
Hermogenes <admin> because light n heat are on th same EM spectrum, aint they?
Cratylus <admin> whoa
<admin> Cratylus sits you down.
Cratylus <admin> you better cool that walnut off
Hermogenes <admin> fine fine, IR emmission and visible light emission are
Cratylus <admin> right
Cratylus <admin> so what?
Cratylus <admin> were talkin about heat
Hermogenes <admin> so...
Hermogenes <admin> uh...
Cratylus <admin> which is NOT on the em spectrum
Hermogenes <admin> so THERE!
Hermogenes <admin> WHAT?
Cratylus <admin> were talkin about heat
Cratylus <admin> which is NOT on the em spectrum
Hermogenes <admin> IR is NOT on the em spectrum?
Cratylus <admin> oh my FUCKING GOD
Hermogenes <admin> ok, NOW im confused
Cratylus <admin> are you pullin my leg or what?
Hermogenes <admin> i must be TOTALLY thinkin of somethin else
Hermogenes <admin> please, to define "em spectrum"
Cratylus <admin> ok im sorry if i sound condescending, but damn you deserve it
Hermogenes <admin> well excuuuUUUuuuuUUuuUuuuse ME for not clearly defineing all th terms from th onset
Cratylus <admin> when electromagnetic energy is radiated, its measured on what we call the em spectrum
Hermogenes <admin> ya?
Cratylus <admin> heat is NOT electromagnetic energy
Hermogenes <admin> but IR radiation is?
Cratylus <admin> but when something IS hot, it emits em waves
Cratylus <admin> somthing that IS hot emits IR
Cratylus <admin> but the heat itSELF is not the IR
Cratylus <admin> the heat is aa different kind of energy
Cratylus <admin> and though the IR waves MAY heat up another object...
Hermogenes <admin> isnt heat how we describe the perception oof said ir energy?
Cratylus <admin> this transfer of energy is not what you can call "heat radiation"
Cratylus <admin> NO DUDE NO
Cratylus <admin> BAD HERMOGENES
<admin> Hermogenes goes back to the page with the creepy kitty pic
Cratylus <admin> define heat please
Hermogenes <admin> mostly to look at the creepy kitty pic, that is
Cratylus <admin> i thought YOU were the scientist in the family
Hermogenes <admin> um, define heat?
Cratylus <admin> yes. define heat
Hermogenes <admin> the amount of hotness soemthing has?
Cratylus <admin> ok let me tell you what webster says heat is
<admin> Hermogenes notes there are over 20 definitions...
Hermogenes <admin> but, go on
Hermogenes <admin> meestor WEBSTER dude
Cratylus <admin> "the energy associated with the random motions of molecules, atoms, or smaller structural units of which matter is compised"
Hermogenes <admin> asSOCiated with
Cratylus <admin> notice there is no mention of electromagnetism
Cratylus <admin> heat, man, is this molecular motion
Cratylus <admin> nothing else
Cratylus <admin> kinetic energy
Hermogenes <admin> ok
<admin> Hermogenes snives.
Cratylus <admin> as it HAPPENS, this energy tends to emit some electromagnetic radiation
Hermogenes <admin> oooOOo, whatta coiINcidince
Cratylus <admin> but the em radiation is NOT heat
Hermogenes <admin> so...
Hermogenes <admin> yer sayin/....
Cratylus <admin> it is em radiation, like the color blue or xrays
Hermogenes <admin> the molecular motion emits the ir stuff?
Cratylus <admin> well, the heat energy does ya
Hermogenes <admin> heat energy?
Cratylus <admin> ya
Cratylus <admin> i dont know if the motion and the energy are the same thing
Cratylus <admin> but thats aa diff argument
<admin> Hermogenes feels sufficiently dumb now, thankyouverywelcome
Cratylus <admin> so, what im sayin is:
Cratylus <admin> when u warm yourself at aa roaring fire
Hermogenes <admin> ooo, dats toasty
Cratylus <admin> you are being warmed by "heat radiation"
Hermogenes <admin> "heat radiation"
Cratylus <admin> the heat, or rapidly moving air/fuele molecules, are speeding up YOUR molecules through contact
Hermogenes <admin> as in "conduction, convection, RADIATION"?
Hermogenes <admin> aaah
Cratylus <admin> LISTEN
Cratylus <admin> the heat, or rapidly moving air/fuele molecules, are speeding up YOUR molecules through contact
Cratylus <admin> it also happens that the fire MAY be causing your molecules to move faster ALSO through some IR radiation, but this amount of heating is insignificant
Hermogenes <admin> ok,
Hermogenes <admin> can i interject at this moment?
Cratylus <admin> sure
Hermogenes <admin> er, MAY i
Hermogenes <admin> the scientist dude ALSO said somethin about:
Cratylus <admin> get that fucking dude in here
Cratylus <admin> go get him
Cratylus <admin> ill wait
Hermogenes <admin> how the earths atomoshpere n crust n stuff arent warmed by particles from the sun hittin them...
Hermogenes <admin> but from the IR radiation
Cratylus <admin> ya i know
Cratylus <admin> go get him
Hermogenes <admin> he left
Cratylus <admin> FUCK
Hermogenes <admin> and like i need MORE people on my case
Cratylus <admin> seriously dude yer not getting it
Hermogenes <admin> OR, like i need a coworker gettin into nan argument with you
Hermogenes <admin> OH MY GOSH!
Cratylus <admin> for some reason yer unable to separate heat from infrared radiation
<admin> Hermogenes aGREES with you!
<admin> Hermogenes is NOT gettin it!
Cratylus <admin> for some reason yer unable to separate heat from infrared radiation
Hermogenes <admin> im sorry, man,i really am
Cratylus <admin> its like saying that because an airplane is flying, it IS flight
Hermogenes <admin> its just one of those cases...
Hermogenes <admin> where the one gear is not in place
Cratylus <admin> I'LL say
Hermogenes <admin> that ONE little 8-tooth gear has slipped
Cratylus <admin> well id like to state for the record that i dont think this is some subtle semantic difference
Cratylus <admin> this is aa fundamental difference in types of energy and radiation
Cratylus <admin> but we can come back to it later
Hermogenes <admin> your statement has been entered into the almighty records of whosrighteedness
Cratylus <admin> ehehehehehe
Hermogenes <admin> so, its been snowing up tehre?
Cratylus <admin> very briefly
Cratylus <admin> none left on the round
Try "help index" for a list of command types.
Hermogenes <admin> we havent gotten ANYthing
Cratylus <admin> musta got it
Cratylus <admin> the HEAT RADIATION musta got it, that is
Hermogenes <admin> its sposed to get up in th 50s morrow
Hermogenes <admin> NOOOOOOO!!!!!
Cratylus <admin> oooohhhhh wait aa minute
Hermogenes <admin> im seriously miffed bout this whole heat thing, btw
Hermogenes <admin> wha
Cratylus <admin> i get it now
Hermogenes <admin> do i wanna know?
Cratylus <admin> i think i see how youre looking at it
Cratylus <admin> maybe
Hermogenes <admin> very well could be
Cratylus <admin> ok
Hermogenes <admin> ive looked at things "wrong" before...
Cratylus <admin> tell me if this is what yer thinking:
Hermogenes <admin> k
Cratylus <admin> when heat causes radiation, thats "heat radiation"
Hermogenes <admin> mmmm....
Cratylus <admin> ok maybe not
Cratylus <admin> worth aa try
Hermogenes <admin> when an object is "energized" enough, it begins to radiate in the iR portion of the em spectrum
Cratylus <admin> yeah
Cratylus <admin> and thats what u mean by "heat radiation"?
Hermogenes <admin> energized usually means addding heat or electricity or SOMEthing to it
<admin> Cratylus nods.
Hermogenes <admin> well...
Hermogenes <admin> the IR radiation brought on is then perceived by our senses as "heat"
Cratylus <admin> ok
Cratylus <admin> do u mind if i drag this on aa bit longer?
Hermogenes <admin> if more energy is added, it then begins to transmit in the visible portion of the em spectrum, and we perceive this as ''light'
Cratylus <admin> i really am interested in understanding our difference here
Hermogenes <admin> as am i
Cratylus <admin> see, i dont think that the IR radiation heats up other things all that much
Hermogenes <admin> actually,
Cratylus <admin> when i put my hand up to aa light bulb, and its hot,
Cratylus <admin> i dont think its because of IR, although some IR is present
Hermogenes <admin> scientist dude sed that IR ardiation is actually quite effective in heating up stuff
Hermogenes <admin> heh, ardiation
Cratylus <admin> ok, but just bear with me aa moment
<admin> Hermogenes bears
Cratylus <admin> lets assume, for the pure sake of argument, that IR radiation does not exist
Hermogenes <admin> heh, sake of argument
Hermogenes <admin> ok, go on
Cratylus <admin> IF there is not IR radiation, could you still warm yourself by the fire?
Hermogenes <admin> uhhh.. yes
Cratylus <admin> by what process?
Hermogenes <admin> ummmm
Hermogenes <admin> light?
Cratylus <admin> no
Cratylus <admin> heat radiation
Cratylus <admin> see i think this is where we went in diff directions
Cratylus <admin> your brain is bent on seeing the word "radiation" in terms of particles or wavelengths
Hermogenes <admin> or, the act of transmitting particles or wavelenghths or whatever
Cratylus <admin> in the context of convection and conductance, this approach to the word "radiation" is not fruitful
Cratylus <admin> thats where we are having aa communication breakdown
Cratylus <admin> again for the sake of argument, lets assume there is no electromagnetic or particle radiation
<admin> Hermogenes likes wavelenghths n particles n stuff...
Cratylus <admin> again for the sake of argument, lets assume there is no electromagnetic or particle radiation
Hermogenes <admin> whata a dismal world
Cratylus <admin> the fireplace is radiating heat
Cratylus <admin> heat comes from it, hence, it "radiates heat"
Cratylus <admin> this is "heat radiation"
Hermogenes <admin> hmmm
Hermogenes <admin> in a loose definition, ok
Cratylus <admin> no
<admin> Hermogenes gasps in shock!
Cratylus <admin> that is not aa loose definition
Cratylus <admin> that is the definition of the word radiate
Cratylus <admin> "to radiate"
Hermogenes <admin> wait, is THAT all there is to "heat transferrence by radiation"?
Cratylus <admin> YESSSSSSS
Cratylus <admin> EXACTLY
Hermogenes <admin> heat comes from it, hence, it "radiates heat"
Hermogenes <admin> heat comes from it, hence, it "radiates heat"
Hermogenes <admin> heat comes from it, hence, it "radiates heat"
Hermogenes <admin> hmmmmm
Hermogenes <admin> ok
<admin> Hermogenes can accept that
Cratylus <admin> ok back to our dismal theoretical world
Hermogenes <admin> wait
Cratylus <admin> which contains no particle or em radiation
Hermogenes <admin> i thought we were done?
Cratylus <admin> oh
Cratylus <admin> ok
Cratylus <admin> so u see my point?
Hermogenes <admin> mmmm, sorta
Cratylus <admin> then we are not donme
Hermogenes <admin> i was making it way too more complicated than it needed to be?
Cratylus <admin> you were on aa different train track altogether
Hermogenes <admin> i was on one of those hovertrains
Hermogenes <admin> on magnetic rails
Cratylus <admin> btw the fireplace does not radiate heat through "light"
Hermogenes <admin> it dont?
Cratylus <admin> it radiates heat by contact with molecules which transmit the heat in the form of kinetic energy
Hermogenes <admin> howcome a black shirt gets hotter than a white shirt, then?
Cratylus <admin> in front of aa fire?
Cratylus <admin> ive never noticed any such thing
Cratylus <admin> in the sun, yeah sure
Hermogenes <admin> but i thought we already established that molecules dont HAFT bounce off eachother to transfer heat?
Hermogenes <admin> hmmm
<admin> Cratylus falls to the floor.
Hermogenes <admin> so, you think a black tshort and a white tshirt in a non-sun light source would not heat differntly?
Cratylus <admin> in front of aa fireplace, i dont think there would be aa noticeable differennce
Hermogenes <admin> im not tryin to argue, im tryin to follow a tangential tracxk for a sec
Cratylus <admin> i think with delicate instruments u WOULD detect aa diff
Hermogenes <admin> NOTCEABLE
Cratylus <admin> this is actually right on track dude
Cratylus <admin> i think with delicate instruments u WOULD detect aa diff
Hermogenes <admin> OH, suddenly im allowed to play on YOUR traintrack?
Hermogenes <admin> :)
Cratylus <admin> because IR radiation DOES in fact play aa role here
Cratylus <admin> but it is not as substantial as the brownian motion
Hermogenes <admin> uh uhuhuhu uuhuh
Hermogenes <admin> sorry
Cratylus <admin> this must be aa way-homer
Hermogenes <admin> a 'way-homer'?
Cratylus <admin> you'll get it on the way home
Hermogenes <admin> heh
Hermogenes <admin> is it really that much fun to argue with me?
Hermogenes <admin> or is it really a chore
Cratylus <admin> im honestly mystified by this
Hermogenes <admin> as am i
Cratylus <admin> i mean, im like...FASCINATED
Hermogenes <admin> and i wasnt asking sarcsatically or rhetorically
Cratylus <admin> this is such aa weird miscommunication
Hermogenes <admin> if it was fun to argue at me
Cratylus <admin> i dint mean it sarcastically
<admin> Hermogenes nods solemnly.
Cratylus <admin> im totally dead serious
Cratylus <admin> dead sexy, too
Hermogenes <admin> didnt think you WERE being scarcastic
Hermogenes <admin> ugh
Cratylus <admin> heh
Hermogenes <admin> just watched that last night
Cratylus <admin> man he is VILE
Hermogenes <admin> 'e leuks leyek a lit'l BEHbee
Hermogenes <admin> oye ET a behbee wunce
Hermogenes <admin> oye sed, OYEM th TOP a th fewd chayn!"
Hermogenes <admin> GET! EN! MAH! BELLY!
Cratylus <admin> ok hang on aa sec dont say anything for aa minute, ok?
Cratylus <admin> ok thx
<admin> Hermogenes nods solemnly.
Hermogenes <admin> you ok there?
Cratylus <admin> ya i had to copy and paste this round
Hermogenes <admin> or... am i still not spossed to be sayin anything still?
Hermogenes <admin> heh
Cratylus <admin> this is just too crazy not to save for posterity
<admin> Hermogenes hopes he wont regret his conversation, but think he probably will
Cratylus <admin> heheh yes you definitely will
Cratylus <admin> well i HOPE you will
Hermogenes <admin> ill probably wind up being WRONG th whole time and lookin like an IDIOT fer it
Cratylus <admin> i hope yer gonna slap yer forehead and go HOLY FUCKING DUH!
Hermogenes <admin> see, th thing is...
Hermogenes <admin> its kinda hard to be wrong about something you dont know what yer talkin about in th FIRST place
Cratylus <admin> i guess
Cratylus <admin> ok
Cratylus <admin> i touch aa stove
Cratylus <admin> coalburning stove. black iron
Hermogenes <admin> like, some 5th grade makin assertions about calculus
Cratylus <admin> i put my hand right ON it
Hermogenes <admin> ya?
Cratylus <admin> my fickin hand is sizzlin n stuff, right
Cratylus <admin> this is happening not because of IR
<admin> Hermogenes nods solemnly.
Hermogenes <admin> but because of....
Cratylus <admin> see, if it was infrered radiation doin this, then why isnt the whole room in flames?
Cratylus <admin> why is it limited to RIGHT AT the stive?
Hermogenes <admin> uh...
Hermogenes <admin> dissipation?
Cratylus <admin> explain dissipation please
Hermogenes <admin> theres so much ari movin roun n stuff, the averagew molecular kinetic energy (motion) can be...uh...averaged out
Hermogenes <admin> over a wider area
Hermogenes <admin> n stuff
Hermogenes <admin> like, the inverse-squared law or something
Hermogenes <admin> YEAH, THATS it
Cratylus <admin> ok...so u agree its not infrared energy?
Hermogenes <admin> burning yer hand?
Cratylus <admin> right
Hermogenes <admin> its...
Hermogenes <admin> the convection of hot air molecules againts yer skin
Cratylus <admin> well, hot STOVE molecules, and it isnt "convection"
Hermogenes <admin> oooOOOOo
Hermogenes <admin> why NOT, mister fancee panse?
Cratylus <admin> whats happening is the surface of the stove is transferring heat to my hand
Hermogenes <admin> right
Cratylus <admin> the mechanics of this heat transfer is simple molecular contact
Hermogenes <admin> ok, its either the conduction of heat between the solid of the stove into te solid of yer hand...
Cratylus <admin> the stove molecules are moving real fast
Hermogenes <admin> ok, now wait
Cratylus <admin> and they make my hand molecules move real fast
Hermogenes <admin> so, theres MORE than JUST 3 ways of transferring heat?
Cratylus <admin> no
Hermogenes <admin> like in th xflies!
Cratylus <admin> do u agree with me so far?
Hermogenes <admin> so, tehre are JUST 3 ways?
Cratylus <admin> do u agree with me so far?
Hermogenes <admin> mostly, yah
Cratylus <admin> ok, what part do u disagree with?
Hermogenes <admin> hol on a sec...
Cratylus <admin> and get aa fucking scientist in here NOW
Hermogenes <admin> no, i had to TEND to work stuff
Hermogenes <admin> ya big meanie
Cratylus <admin> well if u see on, grab him
Cratylus <admin> or her
Hermogenes <admin> i wasnt goin off to find a scientist dude to be on my sdide or nuttin
Cratylus <admin> ok so what part did u not agree with?
Hermogenes <admin> grab her?
Cratylus <admin> ok so what part did u not agree with?
Hermogenes <admin> ok, but only cause you insisted...
Hermogenes <admin> i guess i just wanna establish that theres X ways of heat transferrance, and any examples involving heat transferrence would be put into one or more of these X categories
Cratylus <admin> ok well fuck the 3 categories
Cratylus <admin> do you agree or disagree with my statements?
Hermogenes <admin> YEAH
Hermogenes <admin> POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
Cratylus <admin> dude
Hermogenes <admin> fine
Hermogenes <admin> stove molecules, movin hand molecules
Cratylus <admin> right
Hermogenes <admin> i tells you what my FOOT molecules gunan be movin in a SECOND!
Cratylus <admin> now, if instead of touching the stove, i had held my had within half aa centimeter, it would scald but not burn. right?
Hermogenes <admin> whats the diff?
Hermogenes <admin> its gonna get hot
Cratylus <admin> it would take longer for my hand to be damaged and it wouldnt be black
Hermogenes <admin> scald, burn, sear, fry, etc
Hermogenes <admin> ok, agreed
Cratylus <admin> ok the first example was conductance
Hermogenes <admin> as long as yer not actually TOUCHING it
Hermogenes <admin> ok, 1st = conductance
Cratylus <admin> the second example was radiation
Hermogenes <admin> (with a wee bit of convection)
Hermogenes <admin> hmmmm
Cratylus <admin> with aa little convection but thats not important i guess
Cratylus <admin> heh ya
Hermogenes <admin> second isnt convection?
Cratylus <admin> no
Hermogenes <admin> sounds likeit...
Cratylus <admin> its primarily radiation
Cratylus <admin> because the stove is heating the air molecules
Cratylus <admin> and the air molecules are heating my hand
Cratylus <admin> the heat is being radiated from the surface of the stove, through the air, into my hand
Hermogenes <admin> but...
Cratylus <admin> wait
Cratylus <admin> IR is bad for your eyes right?
Hermogenes <admin> uh...
Hermogenes <admin> is it?
Cratylus <admin> hmmm maybe that uv
Cratylus <admin> ok never mind
Hermogenes <admin> uv, yes, deinately
Cratylus <admin> ok now
Hermogenes <admin> wait
Hermogenes <admin> lemme say why i think its convection
Cratylus <admin> in ADDITION to this molecular heat transfer
Cratylus <admin> no
Cratylus <admin> im sorry
Cratylus <admin> thats irrelevant and aa tangent
<admin> Hermogenes frowns.
Hermogenes <admin> ok, go on
Cratylus <admin> in ADDITION to this molecular heat transfer
Hermogenes <admin> you n yer up-arrow keys...
Cratylus <admin> there is ALSO infrared radiation from the stove
Cratylus <admin> but it is NOT the infrared radiation that burns my hand
Cratylus <admin> it is the direct molecular contact with rapidly moving molecules
Hermogenes <admin> cause the IR stuff aint got enough energy to do it, and its the molecular transferrence stuff thats burning it?
Cratylus <admin> exactly
Cratylus <admin> do you agree?
Hermogenes <admin> im not too sure that IR is all THAT low-level energy-wise, but ok...
Cratylus <admin> so now lets put that stove in outer space
Hermogenes <admin> outher... SPAAAAAACE
Cratylus <admin> (with its own fuel and oxy)
Hermogenes <admin> (of course)
Cratylus <admin> and im out there with the stove
Cratylus <admin> and i put my hand .5 centimeters from it
Hermogenes <admin> (with suit and air supply)
Cratylus <admin> will my hand be damaged?
Hermogenes <admin> um...
Cratylus <admin> bare hand
Hermogenes <admin> uh...
Hermogenes <admin> maybe?
Cratylus <admin> no
Hermogenes <admin> no
Cratylus <admin> i think its possible the stove may shed molecules
Hermogenes <admin> cause the molecules cant transfer the heat as efficiently or quickly
Cratylus <admin> these molecules might hit some of my hand molecules, but not enough to do damage
Cratylus <admin> negatron
Hermogenes <admin> cause theres a near-vaccuum enviroment
Cratylus <admin> they CAN transfer it efficiently and quickly
Hermogenes <admin> oh
Cratylus <admin> if i TOUCH them
Hermogenes <admin> BAD molecules
Cratylus <admin> if i touch the stove, will my hand be damaged?
Hermogenes <admin> yes
Cratylus <admin> right
Hermogenes <admin> BAD stove!
Cratylus <admin> ok, so in aa vacuum, i have to touch the stove to get burned, right?
Hermogenes <admin> PROBably
Cratylus <admin> oK then
Cratylus <admin> that is precisely my point
Cratylus <admin> the stove does not produce sufficient IR radiation to make any noticeable diff to my hand
Hermogenes <admin> k...
Cratylus <admin> only when there is molecule to molecule contact, can the stove do real temp change
Cratylus <admin> therefore, while the stove radiates infrared waves
Cratylus <admin> it does not radiate heat
Hermogenes <admin> funkay
Cratylus <admin> yer supposed to hear trumpets and flights of angels as the truth rolls in from the sky
Hermogenes <admin> just cause i accept it, dont mean i understand it...
Hermogenes <admin> not to bee TOO bog of a pain in th ass
Hermogenes <admin> big, even
Cratylus <admin> you WILL young hermogenes. oh yes. you WILL.
Hellmonger@Trilogy <intergossip> anybody ever fuck with doing Sun consoles on an oldsk00l portmaster 2?
Hermogenes <admin> my BRAIN hurts
Cratylus <admin> sorry
