chapter 4 "Cratylus Has His Buttons Pushed" [02Dec2005-11:55:50] Jayren <cre> i didnt know that could be done. havening rooms or people like that. hi. [02Dec2005-11:56:18] Cratylus <cre> ya, it's convenient for when you're deep in coding [02Dec2005-11:56:28] Cratylus <cre> what's up? [02Dec2005-11:56:40] Jayren <cre> and people like me wanna come by and do nothing except pester you. [02Dec2005-11:56:56] Cratylus <cre> pestering is done on the cre channel [02Dec2005-11:57:58] Jayren <cre> just came back to lister after quite a while of playing with ce pro over on smeghead. [02Dec2005-11:58:21] Cratylus <cre> is that meaningful? [02Dec2005-11:59:01] Jayren <cre> well, i learned more about ce pro. that's always good. learned unlike sound forge, ce pro is multitrack. [02Dec2005-11:59:19] Cratylus <cre> ah, you're talking about your programs [02Dec2005-11:59:37] Jayren <cre> does it mean anything for dslib, um no not really. [02Dec2005-12:00:11] Cratylus <cre> well what you said sounded like this: "just came back to foo after quite a while of playing with bar over on baz" [02Dec2005-12:01:05] Jayren <cre> so then bazically you are saying to cut it out. [02Dec2005-12:01:13] Cratylus <cre> not really [02Dec2005-12:01:34] Cratylus <cre> i'm just saying stop assuming i know what you're talking about unless we've discussed it before [02Dec2005-12:02:30] Jayren <cre> all this lpc stuff makes about as much sense to me, and i thought we have discussed most of that before. i'm pretty sure i mentioned my machine names. [02Dec2005-12:02:46] Cratylus <cre> ahhh so you're talking about programs and specifying machine names [02Dec2005-12:03:20] Jayren <cre> lister and smeghead are machines. ce pro and sound forge are programs both for audio editing both run on windows. [02Dec2005-12:04:14] Cratylus <cre> i'm sure that "lister", "ce pro", and "smeghead" are all obvious and meaningful to you. having mentioned them to me once in passing doesn't make it reasonable to expect me to remember them. do you want me to expect you to remember every file name i throw at you? [02Dec2005-12:05:13] Jayren <cre> i've been told i have a decent memory. i'd give it a shot. [02Dec2005-12:05:21] <cre> Cratylus smiles. [02Dec2005-12:05:29] Cratylus <cre> it's a deal [02Dec2005-12:06:45] Jayren <cre> remember though. being blind i hafta have a good memory. a good bit better than average. i hafta make and use mental maps all the time, in travel from one place to another or just locating a room in a building. [02Dec2005-12:07:19] Cratylus <cre> that should make remembering what i tell you very easy [02Dec2005-12:07:29] Cratylus <cre> i look forward to not having to repeat myself with you [02Dec2005-12:08:12] Jayren <cre> *shrug* we'll see what happens. [02Dec2005-12:08:20] Cratylus <cre> you don't sound so confident any more [02Dec2005-12:10:06] Jayren <cre> there are 2 parts to memorization, acquisition and retension. the first part i'm not so hot at. though once i've retained something it can become part of a mental map. [02Dec2005-12:11:39] Cratylus <cre> ok. so then you understand how it might be reasonable to expect me to forget the names of programs and computers that i do not use [02Dec2005-12:12:07] Jayren <cre> heh. i was waiting for you to connect those. [02Dec2005-12:12:23] Cratylus <cre> explain [02Dec2005-12:12:59] Jayren <cre> phone. [02Dec2005-12:13:03] <cre> Cratylus snorts. [02Dec2005-12:13:41] Jayren <cre> what it really was the phone. [02Dec2005-12:14:05] Cratylus <cre> i believe you [02Dec2005-12:15:02] Jayren <cre> i guess because of my seizures i look a little differently at forgetting things than someone without. [02Dec2005-12:17:16] Jayren <cre> once something is acquired, it takes a bit of time before it goes to relatively permanent storage though once its there there's a lot better chance it will remain. when i have a seizure everything in the acquisition buffer can go blip. [02Dec2005-12:17:16] Cratylus <cre> remembering things takes energy. i dislike wasting energy on things that are of no relevance to what i want to do. if a thing is not relevant to me, it is discarded. the fact that we will be working on blindmode does not make it relevant to me which programs you use on what computers. i find it hard to imagine a circmstance where the name of your computer would have any effect on me whatsoever, except in the case of being challenged to remember it [02Dec2005-12:19:49] Cratylus <cre> let me give you an example of how your statement might have been worded to add meaningfulness. [02Dec2005-12:20:01] Jayren <cre> to give you an idea, i've still got maps in my head for my childhood house, which we left about 18 years ago if i've done the math right. i've got a map for the schools i attended. basically information i will never need again ever. [02Dec2005-12:20:11] Cratylus <cre> "i came back to my favorite synthesizer program after plaing with a different one on my alternate computer" [02Dec2005-12:21:01] Cratylus <cre> a statement like this is not only meaningful to a person who isn't you, but also suggests that your worldview isn't so limited that you expect people to remember every detail of your life that you provide once [02Dec2005-12:22:42] Cratylus <cre> my own brain has various unusual advantages and disadvantages, but i manage to communicate with other people in a way that standardizes my perspective into something generally useful to others [02Dec2005-12:23:04] Cratylus <cre> people appreciate the effort [02Dec2005-12:24:42] Jayren <cre> at the same time, i might not emember something that happened last week because that event didn't get a chance to make it to the storage area and was still in the buffer between that and the outside world when i had a seizure. makes life interesting. still one good thing, i always get to met new people. [02Dec2005-12:26:23] Cratylus <cre> you have adequately explained your problem. do you understand why your expectation was unreasonable? [02Dec2005-12:38:06] Jayren <cre> and i don't expect people to remember what lister and smeghead and soundforge and ce pro are. i never claimed to expect that. if someone wants to know what any of these things are, then all they have to do is as and i'll tell them. just like forgetting something that has happened to me, i can forget what someone knows or more spcifically what i've told them. [02Dec2005-12:39:17] Cratylus <cre> when you made a statement that included those names without context, it per se assumes an expectation that the listener knows what that is [02Dec2005-12:39:39] Jayren <cre> i had no such assumption. [02Dec2005-12:39:53] Cratylus <cre> why would you say things you don't expect another to understand? [02Dec2005-12:40:17] Jayren <cre> if the listener didn't know and wanted to know, then asking would have worked. [02Dec2005-12:41:09] Cratylus <cre> is it your habit to include out of context jargon in all your conversations? [02Dec2005-12:42:50] Cratylus <cre> i mean, i'm picturing a person sitting at thanksgiving dinner, being asked by, say, an aunt about how things are going, and the person replying "just came back to lister after quite a while of playing with ce pro over on smeghead." [02Dec2005-12:43:20] Cratylus <cre> is this sort of thing the way you generally do with people? [02Dec2005-12:43:40] Jayren <cre> one thing this sort of mindset avoids is talking down to folks. for example. if someone asks me how to fix a problem and i tell them that there are several steps and give them those steps if that helps them great. i don't have to tell them what to click or whatever to tell them how to format the c: drive, i can just say format the c: drive. if they dont know they can say, how do i format the c: drive then i can say click on this and do whatever. [02Dec2005-12:44:26] Cratylus <cre> i am a technical expert that deals with laymen all the time. this is why i understand how inappropriate it is to assume knowledge of jargon [02Dec2005-12:45:04] Jayren <cre> i never claimed to be a people person. in fact i know i'm not. [02Dec2005-12:45:23] Cratylus <cre> so you do understand that your expectation was unreasonable [02Dec2005-12:45:57] Jayren <cre> i still submit i wasn't expecting you to know what any of those things were. [02Dec2005-12:46:19] Cratylus <cre> then why on earth would you say that? do you want me to start disregarding your statements? [02Dec2005-12:52:17] Cratylus <cre> the way i see it, there are two possibilities [02Dec2005-12:52:49] Cratylus <cre> first: you did expect me to know what you were talking about, making you a narrow-minded and deeply self-centered person [02Dec2005-12:53:45] Cratylus <cre> second: you did not expect me to know what you were talking about. this means the point of the statement was to make me ask you what you were talking about, which is pointless and rude. [02Dec2005-12:54:25] Cratylus <cre> i suppose there is a third, which is that you didn't care one way or another. since this makes you an asshole, i more or less rules that out, but if the shoe fits. [02Dec2005-12:59:03] Jayren <cre> let's examine those 1: did expect you. can eliminate this one already because i had no such expectation. 2: did not expect you to know. see note 1: above. and 3: i am an asshole. i really think that would be more appropriate if you had asked and i went and laughed and not told you. instead, i gladly told you what those elements were. don't think asshole fits either sorry. [02Dec2005-12:59:21] Cratylus <cre> hmm [02Dec2005-12:59:53] Cratylus <cre> ok, how about this, then [02Dec2005-13:00:55] Cratylus <cre> a friend of mine and i go to lunch, have a good time, and we talk about stuff. i tell her that i'm working on a mudlib called dead souls, the driver of which is mudos, and which is running on a computer called frontiers. [02Dec2005-13:01:56] Cratylus <cre> few days later we get back together. i tell her that frontiers needs a recompile of mudos for dead souls [02Dec2005-13:02:42] Cratylus <cre> given that i only mentioned these names once, and that they have no relevance to her life, i think i can reasonably guess she won't know what i'm talking about [02Dec2005-13:03:42] Jayren <cre> she might have a really good memory though and remember these things from the other day. [02Dec2005-13:03:46] Cratylus <cre> if someone pauses life there, and asks me, "ok, now, you must guess. will she remember what a mudlib is, and its relationship to a mud and driver, and what frontiers is?" [02Dec2005-13:04:12] Cratylus <cre> i have two buttons. on for "yes she will remember" and one for "no, she wont" [02Dec2005-13:04:50] Cratylus <cre> given how irrelevant this knowledge is, the fact that it was mentioned once, and days have passed, during which her life went on, with her havingt to remember things that actually do matter... [02Dec2005-13:05:04] Cratylus <cre> i would tend to guess no. she won't remember. that seems the most likely outcome [02Dec2005-13:05:21] Cratylus <cre> it is *possible* she'll remember, but that is less likely [02Dec2005-13:05:45] Cratylus <cre> therefore, i push the "no" button [02Dec2005-13:05:53] Cratylus <cre> which button would you push? [02Dec2005-13:05:59] Jayren <cre> you can't know if she will remember or not. you just have to be happy to explain if she asks you can't laugh and go 'i wont tell you.' [02Dec2005-13:06:05] Cratylus <cre> which button would you push? [02Dec2005-13:06:35] Jayren <cre> i wouldn't push either one. [02Dec2005-13:06:45] Cratylus <cre> you are not being reasonable [02Dec2005-13:06:53] Jayren <cre> or, i'd push both at once, just to fuck up the system. [02Dec2005-13:06:53] Cratylus <cre> this discussion can have no further purpose [02Dec2005-13:06:57] Cratylus <cre> goodbye [02Dec2005-13:08:44] Jayren <cre> i think it did serve a purpose. i now understand what button you would press and why. and i've just explained why i wouldnt push either.
