Logging is being enabled.
Leto is moderating.
The floor is open for discussion.
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Local host time is Sun May 12 00:24:11 1996.
The following users are in attendance:
   Blue
   Lucas
   Skylight
   Avatar
   Leto

Leto says: well, welcome :)
Leto says: seems Domini and Deathknight won;t attend
Leto says: i know Brainstorm can't come today
Leto says: Last week we dediced to fix a bunch and release it as 1.4
Leto says: things got fixed a lot, but not enough :)
Leto says: help is still being converted
Leto says: intermud 3 is done though
Leto says: brainstorm did a lot on that
Leto says: So,
Beek says: %^RESET%^
Beek says: damn, nasty lag
Leto says: Lucas and Sky
Leto says: Oh hi Beek :)
Leto says: anyway, Lucas ? Sky ? when is help conversion going to be done?
Leto says: next week?
Leto taps his feet.
Leto says: Hmm, not very responsive
Leto says: lets' move on for now.
Leto says: Deathknight is going to work on the new system for reporting and
     assigning bugs , ideas etc
Lucas says: sorry. lagged MAJOR
Lucas says: anyways,
Leto says: Domini will work on the new access system
Leto says: Lucas?
Lucas says: i can have the /std done for sure by next week
Lucas says: err. /cmds/std
Lucas says: more if needed
Leto says: i am not sure how much sky can do
Lucas says: its just this week i had a lot of school stuff
Lucas says: and a few problems on my mud
Lucas says: but this week looks nice
Leto says: Avatar
Avatar says: help conversionn? You mean: string help instead int help() ?
Leto says: you improived mailhelp?
Leto says: yes.
Avatar says: working on it, yes..
Leto says: Ok
Avatar says: need to check some things, probably finished on m,onday
Leto says: while at it, could you doulbe check maifile as well?
Leto says: mailfile..
Leto says: oki
Leto says: then Blue here will work on converting the docs into html
     automaticly :)
Leto says: (easy to assign him tasks when he's idle :)
Leto says: other then that, i guess we should keep on cleaning out bugs and
     todo for now
Leto says: and try to make it compatible with 1.2/1.3 for the time being
Avatar says: question
Leto says: likely people will rip out a few things from 1.4 to update their
     lib
Leto says: hmm?
Avatar says: commands are being checked right now by Lucas/sky, ruight?
     Converting int help() to string help()?
Leto says: yep
Leto says: have any point to make avatar? :)
Avatar says: Ok another thought (I'm doing it in Eodon too). Add 2 functions
     in a base_cmd.c: query_syntax() and query_desc(). Use one string
     help().
Lucas says: i like that idea
Leto says: fine with me :)
Avatar says: the help() in base_cmd will use query_syntax and query_desc to
     create an independant message which can be formatted in the
     receive_message. You create a common and consistent help system.
Leto says: if you feel like redoing all cmds again :)
Avatar says: Most of them can be get from Eodon already :)
Lucas says: should i change them to that instead?
Leto says: let';s not just copy it, you have changed a lot
Avatar says: I didn't say copy!
Leto says: good :)
Avatar says: I said: the functions can be cut/pasted :)
Leto says: well, you two and Sky get together about that?
Avatar says: ok with me
Leto says: oki.
Leto says: emotes and channels are now also done
Leto says: except when you have a space in your cap_name :)
Leto says: weird emote :)
Leto says: anyway
Avatar says: same problem as with spaces in the mud names when using
     intermud tells?
Leto says: well
Leto says: I've talked a lot with people about that
Leto says: persoinally i think it's a protocol fault
Leto says: but others at the i3 team don't agree
Leto says: so, we're stuck with those
Leto says: I had two options for referring to someone@someumd
Leto says: either use user@foo.bar replacing a space with a dot
Leto says: or trying to find a mudname match in the message
Lucas says: me too
Beek says: Yeah, the TMI lib can't handle it, so the protocol is at fault
Beek notes that other libs don't have a problem with it
Leto says: which gets tricky for different muds
Leto says: I am not saying that beek
Leto says: i think we should not allow all characters to be sent, and to not
     have a decent limit on the name
Lucas says: that me too was about the commands fixing
Avatar agrees
Leto says: it's indeed a tmi design fault that it cannot easily handle ut
Beek says: fine, but no spaces isn't necessary
Beek says: in fact, I like spaces in mud names; much more readable
Beek says: and the . hack is just that (a hack)
Leto says: well, personally things as The Land from nine times foobar seems
     too weird to me ;)
Leto says: agreed
Leto says: but having the entire message parsed to search for a mudname is a
     hack too
Leto says: for those who haven't discussed this before....
Beek likes that mud name :-)
Leto says: the problem is with muds as "earth", "earth hello" "earth hello
     there"
Leto says: and someone doing ' tell leto@earth hello there
Beek says: note that that's a contrived example :-)
Leto says: it's a protocol falw :)
Leto says: eu flaw ;)
Leto says: people WILL find it amusing to create
Leto says: but let's not turn this into a I3 meeting :)
Leto says: next
Beek says: bullshit :-)
Beek says: the protocol says nothing about it.  That's impossible
Beek says: one could also say it's the fault of the tell command for not
     using a different syntax
Leto says: the redo of receive_message should be done next week too
Avatar was going to say that :)
Leto says: we now have a perls cript that will remove all wrap() calls in a
     sane and safe way :)
Avatar says: Good. Do we have decided which message-classes we will use?
     Right now, it's a mess
Leto says: nope,
Leto says: deathknight was supposed to bring it :)
Avatar says: Emote-daemons (or channels daemons) still contain (i)wrap
     calls!
Leto says: i know
Leto says: the entire lib does
Beek says: oh, let me suggest something
Leto says: i haven't ran the script yet
Beek says: remember you need a way to NOT wrap
Avatar thinks Eodon is ahead :)
Beek says: otherwise you will screw up formatted output (ls) real fast
Leto says: nod
Avatar disagrees
Leto says: there are always cases where a premade format must be used
Leto says: Beek, did you read my post about the @foo Foo stuff?
Beek says: nod
Leto says: and do you have a solution ? :)
Beek says: \
Leto says: i mean a real one ? :)
Leto says: how does Lima do it ?
Leto says: orthey just don't use it ? :)
Beek says: it has the same problem; it destroys formatting
Beek says: Lima typically just uses long strings.  They aren't as nasty as
     you think.
Leto says: well, they're not as nice when you have a seperate team writing
     the texts, and coders who implement it
Avatar says: Maybe we should think of some codes (like ANSI) for formatting
     the strings.
Leto says: also, it's much easier to read without ",/+ chars :)
Leto says: avatar
Leto says: let me explain it here
Leto says: the fact is writers have a certain dimension of their screenw
     hile writing a bunch of text
Beek says: well, @END wouldn't fix much becasue of the formatting problem
Beek says: i.e. just imploding on " " instead of "\n" is worse, IMO
Leto says: they will not want to write it on a single long line
Beek says: + isn't needed
Beek says: "foo \
Beek says: bar
Beek says: baz."
Beek says: if that's harder to read, you need glasses :-)
Lucas says: i've gotta o
Leto says: why is imploding on " " worse/
Lucas says: err. go
Beek says: consider formatting
Beek says: someone types:
Avatar says: I know what you mean Leto. Read your post too
Beek says: XXXXX
Lucas says: i'll take a look at the logs and respond to anything i can on
     the gboard
Beek says: you loose the paragraph breaks
Leto says: hmmm
Leto says: we should make an html parser and let them convert texts to html
     :)
Leto says: okay, this topic should be thought of some more i think
Leto says: for now, we'll be used to write nasty long strings :)
Avatar says: what I meant was something like extra special codes that can be
     used to format text in a general way. We already have n, t, but what
     about >xx (where xx is a number): identation of xx spaces end ends with
     <
Avatar says: need an example?
Leto says: no, i get it
Leto says: the problem with using a nmber
Beek says: it's also gross :-)
Leto says: it differs for people
Avatar says: true
Leto says: We'll have to think about it.
Beek says: if you want a markup language, you should make a real one.
Beek says: not hack string handling in the driver or do cheezy parsing
Beek says: if you really want that, output HTML and save yourself alot of
     effort
Leto says: maybe make a tool for writing chunks of text and make a command
     or object to convert them :)
Beek says: gee nice lag
Avatar says: it was just an idea :)
Leto says: well, i guess that's it for now
Avatar says: But I think we need to sort it out, before the adjusting of
     receive_message and the shells!
Leto says: we didn't get everything done from last week, so we'll work on
     that
Leto says: yes
Leto says: however, we can already move most formatting to receive message
     and out of the weird spots
Avatar says: leto, maybe we can figure something out next week?
Leto says: setting the long desc of a room to the first player who enters is
     stupid ;)
Leto says: maybe we can
Leto says: brainstorm should be here at my place tomorrow too
Leto says: we'll "brainstorm" a bit ;)
Avatar says: question for beek...
Avatar says: sure :)
Avatar says: beek, you're doing the driver stuff? What about a
     classp-function. I miss it :)
Beek says: it's in.  Upgrade.
Avatar says: 1st thing to do on monday :)
Leto says: i don't recommend v22a33 avatar ;)
Leto says: heard nasty things about it ;)
Avatar says: only using b-versions
Avatar says: or is it not in a b version yet?
Leto says: i am waitinf for one bugfix before i upgrade :)
Leto says: do you need more info for that one beek?
Leto says: or is the file obvious enough?
Beek says: a32 is pretty stable
Leto says: I'll upgrade here to at least a32 before next week
Avatar says: but is the classp func in a b-version?
Avatar says: b8?
Leto says: read the changelogs avatar :)
Beek says: Leto: dunno yet
Leto says: oki, i'll try and fight with gdb myself then :)
Avatar says: good luck
Leto says: well
Leto says: that's it for now, lets hope brain and domini and deathknight
     will be here next time :)

Logging is being disabled.
Leto is moderating.
The floor is open for discussion.
The room is not locked.
Local host time is Sun May 12 01:01:28 1996.
The following users are in attendance:
   Beek
   Skylight
   Avatar
   Leto