<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) --> <!--X-From-R13: f001tzhNabin.jevtug.rqh --> <!--X-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:15:47 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.PMDF.3.95.980223160716.543377740A-100000#nova,wright.edu --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 199802231920.TAA33106#out4,ibm.net --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00568.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00570.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00565.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00774.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00569">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00569">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00569">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</A></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:16:10 -0500 (EST)</LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 coder#ibm,net wrote: > > On 20/02/98 at 02:35 AM, Jon Leonard <jleonard#divcom,umop-ap.com> said: > >On Sun, Feb 15, 1998 at 11:55:11PM +0000, coder#ibm,net wrote: > On > >14/02/98 at 01:58 AM, Adam Wiggins <nightfall#user2,inficad.com> said: > > > >> It makes a lot more sense to me to move away from TCP for MUD clients, and > >> instead look to UDP and design the client and server to be tolerant of > >> dropped packets. Sure, things will get a bit jerky of occassion, but it > >> sure beats waiting for the time-out and re-send of a dropped packet. > > >I'd be extremely reluctant to do this. It's very easy to redesign TCP > >badly, and nearly impossible to do better. > > No, you misunderstand. > > I am proposing that MUD clients move to a protocol and data model which is > tolerant of data loss. If packets get lost, or arrive far to late, the > client won't care and will continue to offer a decent representation of > what is happening in the game. The main problem with telnet lag is *not* > latency but dropped packets -- the whole damn client freezes while > awaiting the lost packet. Instead have the client be predictive and work > on a best-effort basis. It works with the data it gets, and ignores or > attempts to generate the data it never sees for whatever reason. > > Raph has commented that UOL's client does this in some areas. Any interested parties may want to look at the IEEE DIS (Distributed Interactive Simulation) standard (Std. 1278.1-1995 and related docs). It deals heavily with maintaining the simulation state across multiple machines with unreliable network connections. Nothing overly revolutionary, but it lays out a lot of things in one place. I've been working with it a lot at work the past year or so and will probably unconscoiusly steal a lot of it's ideas. :) > >For example, TCP has some fairly nice properties for slowing > >transmissions during times of high load. Running a UDP MUD on an > >overloaded network could easily be a major contributor to that overload, > >and keep it from getting better. > > The key feature of TCP which I'd remove would be the error correction. > Given a predictive client its both unecessary and counter-productive. it makes for very odd entity behavior if you leave it in... aye. :) -Greg </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00774" HREF="msg00774.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> J C Lawrence <claw#under,engr.sgi.com></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00565" HREF="msg00565.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> coder#ibm,net</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00568.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00570.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00565.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00774.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00569"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00569"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Re: [MUD-Dev] Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00459" HREF="msg00459.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics)</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user2,inficad.com">nightfall#user2,inficad.com</a>, Sat 14 Feb 1998, 09:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00483" HREF="msg00483.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics)</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Mon 16 Feb 1998, 07:38 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00537" HREF="msg00537.html">Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, Jon Leonard <a href="mailto:jleonard#divcom,umop-ap.com">jleonard#divcom,umop-ap.com</a>, Fri 20 Feb 1998, 10:24 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00565" HREF="msg00565.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, coder <a href="mailto:coder#ibm,net">coder#ibm,net</a>, Mon 23 Feb 1998, 19:20 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00569" HREF="msg00569.html">Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Mon 23 Feb 1998, 21:15 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00774" HREF="msg00774.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 19 Mar 1998, 23:43 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00570" HREF="msg00570.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vadimt#4cs,com">vadimt#4cs,com</a>, Mon 23 Feb 1998, 22:18 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00641" HREF="msg00641.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:nightfall#user1,inficad.com">nightfall#user1,inficad.com</a>, Sat 28 Feb 1998, 04:54 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00654" HREF="msg00654.html">Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sun 01 Mar 1998, 02:40 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>