<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy --> <!--X-From-R13: [ngg Qunggreyrl <ebbgNzcp.qla.zy.bet> --> <!--X-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:07:15 +0000 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Pine.LNX.3.96.980111135507.271A-100000#mpc,dyn.ml.org --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: c=US%a=_%p=EA%l=MOLACH-980110010301Z-222499#molach,origin.ea.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00189.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00191.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00159.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00201.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00190">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00190">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00190">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Matt Chatterley <<A HREF="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:07:04 +0000 (GMT)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:neddy#itl,net">neddy#itl,net</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Koster, Raph wrote: > On Friday, January 09, 1998 10:43 AM, JC > Lawrence[SMTP:claw#under,Eng.Sun.COM] wrote: > > > NPC's are simple -- [snip] > > Players are more difficult. > > I gotta tell you all, NOTHING is simple about this. :) Well, implementing the NPC side isn't too bad (depending what extent you go to) - its getting the players into the 'swing of things' as you refer to that is really hard. This is one of many things my players will have to learn to live with, methinks- Ive already done several things that might be deemed 'unfair'. 'balance' is a favourite player buzz-word, and the notion that all characters should balance with respect to each other is absurd from my point of view, and a Giant who becomes a fighter of sorts will generally always be more powerful than a Human who does likewise (not necessarily as skilled, but more effective at thumping things, due to being much bigger, stronger and nastier). The style of play between the two is different, so not everyone will want to be the Giant - this doesn't mean the two balance out the same! > In UO we actually had to take OUT realistic economy sim aspects > because they weren't fun. :P Shops being overstocked and not paying > for player goods, shops going bankrupt from failure to compete with > players, players going bankrupt from failure to compete with shops... > and on and on and on. Every tiny change sent massive tremors though > the entire game. We're at the point now where it's a lot less > realistic, but kinda works, and sort of moves along. Heh. I think this is to do with sensitivity of the system - if its oversensitive, its too realistic as you say and not so much fun (SimCity was a good sim, but how realistic was it *really*? It made assumptions and simplifications - and so must we). One of the motivations between my desire for an economy is my desire for IC politics of sort. If Bubba wants some Mithril to have a sword made from, Bubba will have to acquire it (simple scenario). This could be as simple as going to the market if he lives in Kalusia, but if he lives in Lor-Jerich (on a completely different continent), he might have to go as far as launching a trading expedition (which could be very long and dangerous). > If you expect a player to be able to make money occasionally from > selling items they make, you will find that players will expect to be > able to sell those items reliably for a reliable price. And telling > them that there's a glut of bagpipes in the area doesn't mollify them > much. I will have the potential for players to be craftsmen, but expect it to be used in an adventuring scenario more often (of course, playing as a crafts-person purely is possible). The only non-adventuring profession I would really expect to be popular is trader (and this is still quite adventure-wrought!). If players choose their crafts wisely, supply and demand will not be troublesome, or if they have ingeneous ways of approaching things (for instance, devising their own alloys from which to make things, or creating small magical spells to enhance their wares). The thing that leaps to mind (you mention this at the end), is that players will protest "I spent two hours making this Shield, but I can barely make money from it! Two hours - it should be worth a fortune!". The answer "Maybe it is, but noone wants to buy it for that much." doesn't do much. Its something they will just have to live with. :) > Some of the things we tracked and did: > > - track local availability of raw materials for goods fabrication I do this, and also use it to adjust the system value of materials (the game value of all materials is relative, using gold as the base, since gold has some magical/religious significance, or rather, had). > - track amount of materials on hand for the shop Yup. "Stockpiles" of materials in places they are stored or used. This gets fairly interesting if a shop catches fire and is being used for storing wood or paper (or oil for that matter!). > - track sales rate for individual good types both in the shop and in > the local area I don't actually do this explicitly, but I do modify value slightly with supply and demand ratios. > - shops able to recycle goods into materials, with wastage Yup. Particularly with metal - with wood this tends to produce lots of smaller, less useful pieces of wood, whereas metal can be broken back down to its components if they are different enough (or if its just cut up cleverly - there is always some waste). > - determine target stock levels for goods based on turnaround, > materials, demand locally and in this shop, etc Vaguely done - traders track what they tend to use, and will try to make sure they have an adequate supply if it becomes available to them (noting the price of course). > - variable pricing dependent upon all the rest Yup. Traders (both suppliers and retailers) have a 'generosity' rating too, which tracks how nasty/nice they are with respects to giving deals, or overcharging, etc. [Snip] > So now we have a less accurate economy, but one that satisfies > players. And we learned (again) the lesson to never lose sight of the > enjoyment of those who aren't as cutting edge as you are. ;) Well, we don't have to. :) I wonder if anyone would use it if they could use out, etc? Regards, -Matt Chatterley ICQ: 5580107 "We can recode it; we have the technology." </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00189.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Commercial value of RP</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00191.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00159.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00201.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00190"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00190"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00174" HREF="msg00174.html">Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</A></strong>, PMDF e-Mail Interconnect <a href="mailto:postmaster#nova,wright.edu">postmaster#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 06:55 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00176" HREF="msg00176.html">Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</A></strong>, PMDF e-Mail Interconnect <a href="mailto:postmaster#nova,wright.edu">postmaster#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 08:33 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00178" HREF="msg00178.html">Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed</A></strong>, PMDF e-Mail Interconnect <a href="mailto:postmaster#nova,wright.edu">postmaster#nova,wright.edu</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 15:46 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00159" HREF="msg00159.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 01:03 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00190" HREF="msg00190.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></strong>, Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:root#mpc,dyn.ml.org">root#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sun 11 Jan 1998, 14:07 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00201" HREF="msg00201.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] MUD Economy</A></strong>, JC Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,Eng.Sun.COM">claw#under,Eng.Sun.COM</a>, Sun 11 Jan 1998, 22:10 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00154" HREF="msg00154.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items (was: Graphic MUDS/Ultima Online)</A></strong>, Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vadimt#4cs,com">vadimt#4cs,com</a>, Fri 09 Jan 1998, 22:15 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00156" HREF="msg00156.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items</A></strong>, Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Fri 09 Jan 1998, 23:39 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00173" HREF="msg00173.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Unique items</A></strong>, Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 10 Jan 1998, 06:40 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>