<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement -->
<!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNhaqre.rate.ftv.pbz> -->
<!--X-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:56:30 +0000 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: 199803191956.LAA34328#under,engr.sgi.com -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Reference: 199803170048.TAA12925#looney,toon.org -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00764.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00766.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00728.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00731.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00765">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00765">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00765">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#null,net">mud-dev#null,net</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:56:26 -0800</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:57:30 PST8PDT
Justin McKinnerney<xymox#toon,org> wrote:
> Personally, I'm a big fan of PKing.
I just hate impersonal fans...
> I think expirence and equipment should be gained by PKing - since I
> believe that people who play evil alignment should be allowed to
> roleply an evil character. However, players who PK, in particular,
> tend to get powerful and play a lot of hours so they can PK more
> effectively.
More intersting questions:
1) Should there be any concept of XP in the character/stat design at
all?
2) Should anything accrue from killing other than experience in killing
(possibly with relevant skill web improvements), and possession of a
corpse?
#1 is not directly related to going level-less. An Lambert has so
eloquently demonstrated, any scalar advancement system, even if via
multiple scales, is analagous to a level based system, just dressed in
different feathers. The question is instead more closely related to
non-XP based systems such as skill trees, skill webs, or player
awarded rank points rather than using a singular stat whose
advancmenbt may be gained from a broad variety of activities (eg XP
for killing, XP for finding treasure, XP for solving quests, XP for
travel points, XP for puzzle solving, __AND__ XP for thumb twiddling).
#2 centers on the base purpose of play. Is the (or "a") game goal to
gain advancement my killing? Is killing instead merely a means to an
end (cf Clauswitz: "War is merely a means of bringing about a more
ammanable frame of mind on the part of the enemy." (paraphrased)).
What actual __game__ purpose does killing server? What social
purpose? What game-cultural purpose?
A sub-part of #2 considers the character of the killing. Is it
automatic (type "KILL" and then sit back and wait to see who wins),
interactive (type a command for every blow or parry, or intractively
program comabt scripts during the combat ala kata while your opponent
does the same (cf CROBOTS)), or some hybrid form (interactively modify
the system combat preferences in realtime, suggesting new blows, or
specific overrides)?
I'd also note that adding perma-death to a PK game changes the whole
equation. It tends to drive out many of the the hormonally
challenged.
> I endorse this, and do not believe they should be required to avoid
> killing lower level players of their own free will (ie: I don't
> believe in punshing players for doing what they believe is in their
> character).
"Character" or "role-play" are easy to form into convenient excuses.
Fact and alibi are difficult to seperate, especially if you are
attempting to form a distinction between IC and OOC.
Change the game mechcanis not to forbid, but to make certain actions
either unrewarding, or dangerous.
eg:
Newbie killing might be technically and physically possible, but
gets little or no gain, and accumulates negative karma at a
significantly high rate. Sufficient negative karma attracts the Demon
Wroth and puts him in an unsettled mood... Coversely more desirable
(desired by the game designers and admins) activities accumulate
positive karma and (good things follow). cf Islands "sin" concept
along with their justice system (and its well known faults).
<<Where the *BLEEP* is Keegan when you need him??>>
> However, having a physical limitation of the areas they
> can go into has been the only successful way I have seen this pulled
> off...
One could also extend the above karma concept to mobiles, quests and
other such actions with the rate of acquisition being variant on the
location the deed was done in, and the particulars of the other's
involved.
> With a game system that is inheritly unbalanced (which pretty much
> sums up any currently available combat-based MUD systems), it's near
> impossible to avoid area limitations without having full time
> 'dungeon masters' and ending up pissing off players because of a
> judgment against them.
My own view is that Imps and Admins should never get involved in
internal politics or justice. They are there to handle technical
problems (world and server security, stability and logical
consistancy), not social problems. Social problems are for players to
handle among themselves. Some admins may wish to get involved, but it
would be in the guise of players with no especial rights or powers,
and in the fuction of arbiters
> Regardless of the system used, it's crucial that the game take care
> of itself with as little intervention by the 'gods' as possible.
Quite.
There is where the interest in justice and rumour systems comes from.
I have my own nightmarishly tortured (Okay, farcical) justice system
which I've proposed here and will probably implement as soon as I can
figure a single candidate for a "crime".
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net
(Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net
---------(*) Internet: claw#under,engr.sgi.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>:
<UL>
<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00728" HREF="msg00728.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Justin McKinnerney" <xymox#toon,org></LI></UL></LI>
</UL></LI></UL>
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00764.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Dynamic Loading of Modules (was: Back on the list)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00766.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00728.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00731.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00765"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00765"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00720" HREF="msg00720.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] (no title) Time limits?</A></strong>,
Justin McKinnerney <a href="mailto:xymox#toon,org">xymox#toon,org</a>, Sun 15 Mar 1998, 23:35 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00723" HREF="msg00723.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts</A></strong>,
Ling <a href="mailto:K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk">K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk</a>, Mon 16 Mar 1998, 19:50 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00724" HREF="msg00724.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
cimri <a href="mailto:cimri1#gte,net">cimri1#gte,net</a>, Mon 16 Mar 1998, 20:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00728" HREF="msg00728.html">RE: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
Justin McKinnerney <a href="mailto:xymox#toon,org">xymox#toon,org</a>, Tue 17 Mar 1998, 00:49 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00765" HREF="msg00765.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 19 Mar 1998, 19:56 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00731" HREF="msg00731.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Tue 17 Mar 1998, 05:11 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00736" HREF="msg00736.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
Ling <a href="mailto:K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk">K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk</a>, Tue 17 Mar 1998, 14:50 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00749" HREF="msg00749.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 18 Mar 1998, 07:56 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00784" HREF="msg00784.html">Re: [MUD-Dev] Balancing Addicts -> soft vs. hard enforcement</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Fri 20 Mar 1998, 09:57 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>
