As far as I was using the term, it would be fair to say I was referring to the average Windows user. Specifically the ones transitioning to linux for whatever reason.

I will stipulate that any average user who was raised on either linux or OS X will not have the same mindset and will not find it the least bit strange to have to use some silly repository to get what they need. But Windows users are an entirely different breed as anyone in corporate IT can attest.

Well the average windows user comprises the largest portion of all computer users, so therefore the average user should be a windows user, right?

-Syn

What about an average new user? One that has not previously been exposed to other operating systems.

As for the repository being "silly" I would beg to differ. The repository makes it very easy to find and install (or uninstall) OS components as well as other applications I may have use for. This is easier than searching the internet for something I might find cool, only to find out that it is incompatable with my version of Windows, has issues with some previously installed software, comes with a virus, contains spyware, or contains a trojan of sorts.

I've used Windows since 3.11 was new. I've gone through Windows 3.11, 95, 98, 2k, XP and now Vista. I can honestly say that using Ubuntu is a much more enjoyable experience, especially compared to Vista.

Contrary to Microsoft's belief, I don't think the average user should be a Windows user. The computing world would be a better place if it hadn't been flooded by Microsoft.

Syn, I felt that you didn't reply to what I had said. I tried to clarify what I had originally said. I do not think that calling my attempt to clarify my original point a "moronic tangent" is the best way to hold constructive discussion.


While I agree with the sentiment on some level, I think you're being a little harsh on Microsoft; the average user would probably make many of the same silly mistakes on other systems as well. If you don't understand the stakes, you can do silly things. It suffices to look at people in Ubuntu asking how to log in to Gnome as root and use that as their main environment: that defeats the whole purpose of separation of powers. I have seen several Mac OS X users who could destroy their whole system simply by executing a malicious file, just like on Windows. The problem with Windows isn't necessarily that it encourages bad behavior more than other systems (although TBH maybe it does a little bit), it's that Windows has problems that can result even from perfectly sane users. (Well, who knows what problems one would find in Mac OS X if all the hackers that target Windows targeted it instead.)

Well, that's just human nature to make mistakes.

What I was meaning by what you had quoted from me, was that we probably wouldn't have to have this discussion if the PC industry hadn't been flooded and, more or less, forced into using Windows as the OS of choice from most, if not all, PC manufacturers and distributors. I certainly was not pleased that the new laptop we just bought forced us into using Vista. We, of course, have the option to install an alternate OS, but that would void our warranty.

Well, like I said on some level I agree with you. I wonder though if things would have really been that different had another vendor dominated the OS market. I suspect that in the end it is that any domination is bad, not Microsoft's in particular.

I didnt say, 'should be' I said are, which is clearly true numerically.

* note that I am not saying MS is superior, only that as we are talking 'average computer user' aparently, that average would be a MS windows user of limited skill or knowledge. Take this stat from 02 alone: All told, 121 million client OSs shipped in 2002, IDC says; about 113 million were XP, 3.5 million were Mac OS, and 2.9 million were Linux.

My points had little to do with the repository itself, more that the user would be in a different environment with little support and the few things they do know (exe's system restores, tech support numbers, etc.) would be gone. Also some people simply dont get computers past the use of e-mail or a 'system restore' choose a date feature. If something goes bollucks on a nix box and your not used to nix, good luck.

As a side note, dell ships i think 3 or 4 computers with ubuntu now. Its difficult to find and the ones they have arent great (comps) but its a start right?

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segto...

I'd have to agree, but I don't think he meant that the repository was silly like that but rather more as an establishment of the typical mindset of a person transitioning from Windows to Linux. *shrug*



I had almost the same transition path, though I guess I've been in computers a bit longer as I also have a number of "OS's" prior to that as well, starting with Zenith's DOS which was based on CPM/Cobol-80… and I've also tried a few more Linux flavors than just Ubuntu as well, in fact, I seem to recall mentioning which ones way back at the beginning of this thread…



:lol: Again, while I generally agree, I really don't think he meant it the way he stated it like that. :lol:
Overall, I'm not entirely certain that the world would be a better place sans Microsoft's contributions over the last three decades, but the world can stand a major shift towards something better at this point. :wink:


Um, actually, even in the single line that he quoted which you then re-quoted, you did say that. I think it's obvious enough, given the context, that you meant to say "probably is" or "statistically would be" so it's not a big deal, but it's sort of silly to say I didn't say X while quoting that you did say X.



Again, reasonably understood already.



Actually, have you ever dealt with Microsoft's tech support? In my experience, they're one of the most expensive tech support options available and give as bad advice to the end-user as any of the rest of them out there. For Linux I've found that "support" is only a web search away and there is a huge "community" of Linux users who are only too happy to tell you how to resolve whatever issues you're having, even if they are totally unrelated to computers.. *snicker*


Exactly, it's not ideal but it's a big step in the right direction. And they're not the only ones with Linux available either, in fact, even Wal-Mart has recently been carrying a couple of Everex boxes which come with gOS (branded Ubuntu basically) installed on them.

I certainly hope this start continues and grows. I only wish this had started years ago and was more wide-spread by now.

Oh, no doubt. I wasn't suggesting that the computing world would be better off without Microsoft at all, just that it would be better if it hadn't been flooded by Microsoft. A stream of MS products and OSes would have been more acceptable instead of the raging river we got instead. Even so if there had actually been some competition against MS. For the most part, Microsoft's only viable competitor was Apple. However, MS's software wouldn't work on an Apple machine, which was after all, what Apple was selling - the machine, not the software. MS wasn't in the business of selling PCs.

But anyway…
I was thinking the same thing. Free community support vs paying for poor support? Not a hard decision to make.

It's nice that you've come to that conclusion. It's unfortunate that you had to come to it while telling me that my attempts to correct the diversion were "moronic tangents".


In fairness, this is only true when the community support is actually good and responsive. And sometimes, actually paying somebody for a service can be helpful as it establishes some degree of legal liability. Not relevant to most people though, I'll grant.

It was moronic, and had little to do with what I had been talking about. I had stated that you made the assertion to an average user without defining it clearly enough to be accurately used in this instance. Further that average was subjective. This was evidenced, after you said there was no need to clarify the term, when I said average windows user, and you questioned that. I reiterated that, and then clarified your 'average user' statement to talk of the average user being a windows user. Obviously you had neglected to think of this, nor the other contributing things that would have led to this being the case. So yes, all I did was restate what I had been partially saying from the beginning, the other half was seen by conner and samson later on.

that you do not understand that, and then somehow think my point now has changed, and morphed into yours is laughable. Thank you for proving the 'moronic' in my statement.

-Syn

So, it is "moronic" for me to respond to you and try to inform you that you weren't responding to what I actually said? So, it's moronic if I talk about something that wasn't what you said, but it's perfectly fine if you respond to something I never said?

Perhaps the definition of average was not clear to you (although the term has a fairly standard definition, which is why I was stunned that you seemed to not understand it, but let's put that aside) – be that as it may, it was later clarified. So what is the problem?

I'm not sure why you think I don't believe that the average user is a Windows user. That is true by virtue of the fact that most users in the set of all users are Windows users. I maintain that if you look at the programs that most average users want to use on a computer, these are available. What exactly is it that you disagree with? Are you disagreeing with a past version of my point despite numerous clarifications having been made? Are you just out to have fun calling me moronic?

It mystifies me why you seem so eager to think people you disagree with are so stupid; it mystifies me why you feel the need to call them moronic for trying to clarify previous points. Your attitude is remarkably disagreeable. :sad:

You keep inventing random circles, implying people are going in directions that you didnt, or were not there etc etc etc.

I was pretty clear, i expanded my clarity, you choose not to see that. This is your problem, and the root of my moronic statement. If that is all you wish to try and hammer, have fun bud. I didnt, also, call you stupid. If you wish to invent a conversation do it with someone else please, I havent the time for that sillyness. I said it was a moronic tangent, not that you are stupid. Please reread the entire thread, perhaps you can see how little understanding you actually had of everything I had said. My 'surprising' lack of knowledge to the definition of average was your imagination. You had used average in quite an improper way and applied it as if it was something that helped your position in some manner. If you had clarified, as I said was wanted and needed, to mention an average linux user, or an average user with some basic knowledge of linux, perhaps that would have worked. No, you blew past all of my explanations and held fast to some made up argument on that random tangent.

I never said you didnt believe the average user was a windows user, I said you needed to be clear in what you said. Saying the average user tells people nearly nothing. The average user of what? Medical software? Pico? All computers everywhere?

If you have trouble finding what I disagree with, please, reread what I wrote, numerous times, I told you. Apparently you just dont feel like reading what other people really say.

/shrug :rolleyes:

-Syn

I recall the average computer user was quite happy with his or her VT220 terminal back at WMU. It connected to the VAX/VMS mainframe cluster and worked pretty well. It had a consistent UI. You could run your apps from anywhere on campus, and indeed remotely over a modem, even down to 2400 baud was reasonable. You had your choice of skins… you could sit at a green one, a grey one, or even an amber one!

Then the kids started whining that they needed VT420's, and even though 99% of the apps didn't run any better on them (about 1% used colour if available), they wanted custom prompt colours. Not long after that, these graphical terminals came in, and people complained more and more about how this, that, and the other thing didn't look quite right. Countless hours were wasted while people fiddled with fonts, moved windows about, and customized their desktops.

Extrapolate to 2008 now. I suspect that the "average" user probably spends more time downloading, upgrading, and customizing their desktop than they actually spend doing anything useful with their machine. What the average user really wants is a desktop with two big buttons on it. A big blue on that says "find more shinies!", and a big red one that says "Do my work!". If they could click the big red one when the sign in, and then spend the rest of the day clicking the blue one, they might be content. Not happy, as that would require that tech support come to their desk to push the red one for them. :)

Forgive me if I find the distinction slightly subtle when you have been so careful to tell me over and over again (a) how thick I am being, (b) just how little I understand about anything, and now © that I am "inventing random circles".


Why should I have done so when it was not what I meant? Why do you get to decide what is a "needed" clarification of my point, when you don't (or didn't) know what I'm trying to say?


I fail to see why you keep hammering upon this point that has been clarified over and over and over again. It's almost as if you're picking a fight just for the sake of fighting it. That said, to claim that "average" tells you nothing is to be rather facetious: you pointed out yourself that it would mean that the average user is a Windows user.


I have told you already that I believe that your initial points were based on a miscommunication; apparently the term "average" made less sense to you at the time than it did when you said that the average user runs Windows. :shrug:


You will forgive me if, frankly, I don't really feel like trudging through reams of text most of which aim to inform me how moronic my statements are. If there was a key insight you feel I missed, surely it would take you but a sentence to repeat it, if you care to do so.

This statement is all too true, even for people who are familiar with the day to day operation of linux. If the system goes bollocks on you, that can usually spell the end. Especially when you turn to the "community" for help and are treated to a flurry of RTFM style responses.

This is an advantage of Ubuntu: it is extremely rare to get nasty responses like this. Actually, I found that the Fedora forums were also rather helpful back in the day, and since you used that, I'm not sure why you have the above impression so strongly.

Then we have nothing to discuss, and you can stop talking about it. I was quite clear, I guess you wish to ignore that /shrug



Yes, absoltely. Which is really sad.

I think that the reason why I don't care to do so, that you casually snipped, is at least a little relevant, no? :lol: But you are right: this discussion has run its course for reasons more than one.