15 Aug, 2012, raistie wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
HOTL3 requires an IMM to initiate newbies and help them learn about the
game.
As this is a fully customised MUD, the learning curve is very steep.
You will be taught how the game's unique mechanics work
and help dispense information at the right time to guide players.
Please leave or send a message to get in touch.

What is required:
- Redesign MUD school for progressive tutorials
- Implement an advice system that notifies players of features

The game:

"Heroes of the Lance 3 is a Dragonlance, Forgotten realms based mud with
100+ unique classes,
skills, questing,heart thumping war and fusion/generation systems.
You choose the skills according to how much your brain can hold, and the
class will be assigned to you.

The leveling system extends to 50, and upon there, you gain the
ability to fusion/mate with another player and go on to the next generation
(more powerful), being something you have never been before. This makes for
endless replaying and customising through a dynamic gene pool.
Note: This is NOT remort.
During fusion any of the other players limbs and/or genes can
be transferred to you and vice versa, but be careful, genes
can also be lost.

Due to the unique fusion and skill system, no two players are ever the same.

With the exception of standard weapon attacks, combat and
spell casting time is not randomised, you employ full control
of when you cast the next spell or strike the next hit
through our action point system.

Try us out to see it in action."

Email: admin@hotl3.com
Website: Heroes of the Lance III
Facebook: Heroes of the Lance III Community | Face...
15 Aug, 2012, Lyanic wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
15 Aug, 2012, Runter wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
Kavir is old.
15 Aug, 2012, Ssolvarain wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
Shenanigans and bullshit as usual on TMC.

Also: Looks like a dikurivative to me. Put the credits back in you jerk.
15 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
Runter said:
Kavir is old.

I've been called worse. You need a thick skin to run a mud, but that pales in comparison to auditing them.

For those who can't be bothered to read the threads on TMC: I audited a mud based on HOTL3 back in 2004, the owner refused to believe it was derived from Diku because the author had told him it was written from scratch. He was so convinced that he emailed me part of the source code, and I produced code comparisons proving that it was indeed based on Diku.
15 Aug, 2012, Idealiad wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
I gave them the benefit of the doubt and logged in. Got to agree with Ssolvarain. What do these guys think removing credits will get them? It doesn't make the game look any more original, because it just looks like a dikurative anyway.
15 Aug, 2012, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
Sorry but I have to wonder something..

Of all of the copyright/trademark violations, (being D & D and all) that tends to come up, why bother to ignore that, only to point out it's a dikurative?
15 Aug, 2012, Idealiad wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
It's low-hanging fruit. Some works (D&D, Pern, Dragonlance, whatever) allow different degrees of derivative fan-made media. There's no single reference that tells you who allows what. The DIKU licenses however are more clear cut.
15 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
Jhypsy Shah said:
Sorry but I have to wonder something..

Of all of the copyright/trademark violations, (being D & D and all) that tends to come up, why bother to ignore that, only to point out it's a dikurative?

I don't ignore it if the copyright holder has made their w.... But most of them are pretty vague on the subject, or have special exceptions, or are known for unofficially encouraging fan fiction, etc.

When the Diku team had their work ripped off, they stopped developing muds and decided to spend their time on something else - and I've seen the same happen to other mud developers over the years, there's a lot of cool stuff that's simply vanished because the author got burnt by people like the OP. However if you try and do the same with D&D, or Lord of the Rings, etc, you'll soon discover that they have absolutely no trouble affording lawyers.

Aside from that, these forums concern muds, and I'm a mud developer, so obviously I'm going to pay more attention to something that impacts me directly. In this case the OP was trying to recruit a coder, so I pointed out that "Speaking as a mud developer, when considering new projects to work on, one of the first things I do is look at how the mud owner respects the rights of other mud developers whose work they use."
16 Aug, 2012, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
I'm not trying to be an ass but I'm detecting a whole lot of irony here..

I would assume a coder would be knowlingly implementing another's sourcebook or die system as their sourcecode, in this case and many others.

..and the builders (for diku?) would probrably be creating areas, mobs, objects and such based off of the published content?

I don't think anyone plans to claim parody for media allowed or use it to promote DDO or anything. It honestly just seems more like a commonly accepted double standard to me.

..but if it's just me then I guess I can drop it.
16 Aug, 2012, Vatiken wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
The MUD community as a whole was born through the work and time invested by generous and talented individuals throughout the years and many of them asked next to nothing in return. It's individuals like the OP who make it not worth while for those with the means to contribute to do so, and it's the community that pays for it.

Thus as it should be, the community burns them alive. :mad:
16 Aug, 2012, Runter wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
Jhypsy Shah said:
I'm not trying to be an ass but I'm detecting a whole lot of irony here..

I would assume a coder would be knowlingly implementing another's sourcebook or die system as their sourcecode, in this case and many others.

..and the builders (for diku?) would probrably be creating areas, mobs, objects and such based off of the published content?

I don't think anyone plans to claim parody for media allowed or use it to promote DDO or anything. It honestly just seems more like a commonly accepted double standard to me.

..but if it's just me then I guess I can drop it.


Maybe it's because you don't understand that parody isn't the only thing that allows you to legally use other peoples ideas. In fact, you can use other peoples ideas until the cows come home. Even if those ideas are implemented somewhere. In other words, ideas don't constitute intellectual property. That doesn't meant that you can't have an idea which turns into a story, or an idea which turns into code that you write. These things are indeed protected, and maybe the confusion here is that a lot of intellectual property rights holders allow other people to use their work in different ways. In this specific case, the diku team is clear about the conditions for using their work, and there's no irony here. If you want to use dikurivatives then follow the license. The result may not be a lawsuit, but the cost of not following the license is going to be bad press in this community.
16 Aug, 2012, Alathon wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
I'd like to point out that I think its a really good thing that the MUD community hangs people out like that. I've been part of other communities where the responses are pretty much 'Dont care *shrug*', even when people in the same community with active games and/or art assets are stolen by others and blatantly used in rip-off games. And it just leads to more of the same, and frustration all-round.

To make matters worse, all this is, is a question of credits. Its quite silly to ostracize yourself from a very tight-knit community (Of people who mostly annoy eachother, but get along none-the-less) over a few small lines, that very few people are going to care about anyway. Even giving the owner the benefit of the
doubt, and say he/she had no idea - The decent response on being made aware of it, is to apologize, put in the credits, and then its no big deal.
16 Aug, 2012, Davion wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
Alathon said:
I'd like to point out that I think its a really good thing that the MUD community hangs people out like that. I've been part of other communities where the responses are pretty much 'Dont care *shrug*', even when people in the same community with active games and/or art assets are stolen by others and blatantly used in rip-off games. And it just leads to more of the same, and frustration all-round.

To make matters worse, all this is, is a question of credits. Its quite silly to ostracize yourself from a very tight-knit community (Of people who mostly annoy eachother, but get along none-the-less) over a few small lines, that very few people are going to care about anyway. Even giving the owner the benefit of the
doubt, and say he/she had no idea - The decent response on being made aware of it, is to apologize, put in the credits, and then its no big deal.


FWIW I do care. As someone who came up learning how to program with MUDs, I greatly respect the contributions of others. I logged into this MUD and discovered that it is, in fact, a ROM derivative (a big tip was loggin in and typing 'help credit' :)). Confirmation was done by playing with their (slightly modified, but still stock) creation.
16 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
Jhypsy Shah said:
I would assume a coder would be knowlingly implementing another's sourcebook or die system as their sourcecode, in this case and many others.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-ge...

What does copyright protect?
Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed.


Copying the D&D die system? Fine, many roleplaying games have done exactly that.

Photocopying the D&D rulebook, removing the names of the original authors, and claiming it's your own work? Not okay.

Alathon said:
I'd like to point out that I think its a really good thing that the MUD community hangs people out like that.

To be fair he hung himself, I only showed him the rope.

Faced with the same situation, I've seen other mud owners politely apologise and quickly correct the issue. Their muds get additional exposure from the posts, and they earn respect from other mud developers for their honesty.

This is also one of the main reasons why I post publically - it forces an immediate response, and gives the owner the opportunity to claim it was an accident even if they secretly knew about it before. In the past when I've tried contacting mud owners privately they almost never fix the issue, then when I make it public they can no longer save face by feigning ignorance.
16 Aug, 2012, arholly wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
I agree with KaVir and the others on this. I know the mud I took over was a ROM24 base, but the other coder removed the ROM header files from the code. I went back and put them in because it was the right thing to do. I know that no one will probably ever look, but when it comes down to it, it's the right thing to do.
16 Aug, 2012, Hades_Kane wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
Where I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in this scenario is that perhaps the author was in a similar position to arholly… they setup a MUD already stripped of credits, and didn't remove them (him/her)self.

But with the issue out in the open, the right thing to do would be to nab a copy of the code it's based on, copy the license folders over, add the headers back into the source files, and add the credits back in.

No harm, no foul in this case. It can hardly be helped if someone -thinks- they are setting up a MUD w/o these restrictions, but when they are informed otherwise, the proper thing to do would be to abide by them.
16 Aug, 2012, Jhypsy Shah wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
Maybe it's because you don't understand that parody isn't the only thing that allows you to legally use other peoples ideas. In fact, you can use other peoples ideas until the cows come home. Even if those ideas are implemented somewhere. In other words, ideas don't constitute intellectual property. That doesn't meant that you can't have an idea which turns into a story, or an idea which turns into code that you write. These things are indeed protected, and maybe the confusion here is that a lot of intellectual property rights holders allow other people to use their work in different ways. In this specific case, the diku team is clear about the conditions for using their work, and there's no irony here. If you want to use dikurivatives then follow the license. The result may not be a lawsuit, but the cost of not following the license is going to be bad press in this community.

No I don't. From what I understand, claiming parody without permission, is basically pleading guilty to it, it isn't nessecarily legal. I'm not talking about stealing 'ideas', it's not like a mud on dragonlance is just going to borrow the ideas from the sourcebook. When ya take a loose synopsis and go with it then it's a borrowed idea but when ya have the names of characters from the story, as they are, in the same fictional lands, exactly as they were created..then I would think it's much more like plagiarism. You have recreated the novel..

Same with the sourcebook. If all of your help files are basically the same as AD&D 2.0 or whatever edition rules, from character creation onwards..then call it an original mud, though it's based on their campaign world and other creations. I see it as the same.

If you have their artwork (and I'm not talking CC or public domain) on your mud's website, without their permission, promoting it and all your worried about is a line from a 20 year old codebase..I would call that irony.
16 Aug, 2012, arholly wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
What you understand is wrong. KaVir has spent (way too much) time learning about this and is the expert in the community. You have to have the license if you use any part of the code.
16 Aug, 2012, Igabod wrote in the 20th comment:
Votes: 0
Why does nobody learn from Locke and the whole Mediavia debacle? Fix the credits, its easy, and quit stealing the work of the original coders. Don't be a douchebag. There are enough of those wandering around the mudding community. When I was a newbie coder running my first mud I made a new greeting screen that had no credits on it at all and it was using the godwars code base (sorry kavir). One of my players pointed out to me that I was violating the license which I had no knowledge of at all. I fixed the problem immediately by adding those 3 or 4 lines back in and heard no more complaints. In fact I gained more players because the person who pointed it out to me brought some friends after seeing that I fixed it. So even if you have no respect for the people whose work you are using, do it simply to gain more players who will respect you for doing the right thing. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming the next Locke, and that's not a fun person to be in this community.
0.0/26