Heh, David, I actually read responses enough to get a 'utterly clear' idea of who they are directed at. :grinning:

It's 'utterly clear' that certain people in this thread are arguing their opinion or view regardless of legal counsel, clarification from the authors, etc.

Regardless of whose legal council?

Lots of armchairs and dead souls ! That ought to worth something !

"You should know i am not against donations as such, and he may sell his merchandise as he pleases, but he may not use the game directly for this."

DH, the above sentence is the one that anyone who is accepting donations for their DikuMUD-based game seems to "have trouble" processing. What he is in fact saying is that if you solicit donations by stating or implying that your players will get uninterrupted service to your game in exchange, then you are using the game directly to make profit (and yes, uninterrupted service to your game is a tangible in-game modification, I imagine). And it doesn't matter what you've stated as the reason for soliciting donations as long as it can be demonstrated that you used the DikuMUD server as a means (just because people don't advertise they've embezzled doesn't mean that their crime can't be proven in court). So, if you raise donations or any other funds by stating or implying that the other party will get to play a DikuMUD in exchange, then the only option allowed by the license is for you to mail the money to the authors of DikuMUD.

Sanko, profit is defined as revenue over and above expenses, and donations to a DikuMUD server are profit because the expenses for running a DikuMUD server are 0. They are 0 because it costs nothing to download, compile, and run the code. It is your choice to spend money on a host service. Equally, you can choose to pay yourself a salary for maintaining that server, but that doesn't mean you can solicit donations to do so. Indeed, you can choose to build a business empire on top of the DikuMUD code, but you will still not be allowed to use the code directly to generate revenue. It would have to either be your own money, or money you raised by providing services or goods unrelated to DikuMUD.

If you have trouble understanding why direct donations to a DikuMUD server are profit, imagine the following scenario: I come across ten boxes of small pox vaccine. They come with a note saying that the goal is for them to be distributed freely. I move them in my own boxes and I set up a stall where I hand them out freely and on the stall there's a jar for donations. Do you see the issue here? People who donate would be swayed mainly by the vaccine, and not by the fact that your renting a stall cost you money, or that you need money for cold lemonade so you can stand around longer and hand out vaccine that was free to begin with…

To respond to DH (again), let's talk about revenue from merchandise:

For one, I can sell T-shirts with the Eiffel Tower on them without worrying I'll have to check with the municipality of Paris. Even if I sell T-shirts with "DikuMUD" written on them, I'd be fine because it's not a registered trademark. Nor is there (usually) a direct connection between someone buying a T-Shirt with your game's name and any tangible game modification. So, as long as I state or imply only connections between the T-shirt and the name of my MUD, or the game website, I'm in compliance with the license.

But, and the author's quote above supports this, if you were to say "buy 2 T-shirts or I'll bring down the server" or "buy 10 T-shirts and get an in-game jetpack" then you're again in violation of the license because you're back to using the game directly for profit. The authors are okay with devs selling T-shirts as a way to monetize their own "trademark" but not if they state or imply a direct connection with the codebase.

The keywords are "profit" and "directly."

It, ah, sounds like you are vehemently agreeing with people… ?!?
You keep phrasing it as a disagreement, and yet you are not arguing anything different?

The only possible disagreement is this notion of using the server as a means. If you say that me putting a "donations" button on my website is using the server as a direct means to get money to fund the server, I'll say that's pretty darn far-fetched.
Not only would it be far-fetched, but it directly contradicts what he said later on, wherein he defined what he meant by "directly using" – giving people in-game benefits. No picking and choosing… :smile:


No. This is not how business expenses work.


I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this. I think that everybody has established without any ambiguity whatsoever that this would not be ok. I certainly never argued it, so why are you directing it at me?

I don't understand this comment. The only difference in opinion I have with most people (Runter and, I think, Cratylus excepted) is that I don't think it's OK to raise money for server maintenance costs if you are doing so by stating or implying a connection with the DikuMUD code.



Look, it doesn't matter how far removed your donate button is from your DikuMUD code. If it can be argued that you guided people there by using the DikuMUD code as leverage (whether you advertised this to the world or whispered it to your players on the down-low or casually mentioned it in a global chat channel) then that is a direct connection.

What I meant earlier when I said that you need to wait until the revenue is used is that at the time you use the funds, it becomes demonstrable whether you stated or implied a connection with the server to get them. For instance, if you put a bare donate button on your personal site, there's really not enough evidence to argue one way or another. But if you then use the funds to pay for DikuMUD server running costs, the authors of DikuMUD will have reasonable suspicion to think that you may have guided your players there by using the code as leverage, and they can begin an inquiry (if they were sticklers i. e.). If the investigation turns up that in fact you asked your colleagues to donate money on account of you being so pretty to look at, then you're free to use the donation money as you see fit. But if it turns out that you used the codebase as leverage in any way, then, you guessed it, there's a direct connection.



For *your* business, server costs are an expense. But that's your business of running a server on a paid host and should have nothing to do with the code itself. The authors of DikuMUD did not charge you anything for downloading, nor did their code compel any other expenses on your part. So why use their code to raise money to fund your own business?

If you really want to misread the license in order to build a business on top of other people's code, the authors of DikuMUD are not going to stop you, and I won't either. If defining this business as a "non-profit" makes it morally acceptable to you, no-one will stop you, either. I'm just saying I wouldn't do that.

'But that's your business of running a server on a paid host and should have nothing to do with the code itself.'
You can distort reality as much as you want, but running code has a price that cannot be null. Ever.

You are saying things that the authors did not say. They made very clear what they understood by it: "The way i usually define this is if the players get some tangible modification within the game for their donations."

You're adding things into the mix that they simply did not say.

Furthermore, it's a mystery to me why you conclude that using the game to drive people to buy t-shirts is ok, but using the very same brand to hope people will give no-strings-attached donations is not.


No… really. If you are talking about business expenses, then the cost of running your own home server can also be considered a business expense. Yes, you can choose to host the system elsewhere, or you can choose to host it at home. If you choose to host it at home, your internet connection and computer become, at least partially, a business expense. You can even look this up in various corporate policies and even tax law if you care to do so; look up the sections on home office expenses.


Here's what is simply mind-boggling to me, right? You say things like this, and yet at the same time you go to great lengths to discuss why it's ok to sell t-shirts. How is that not building a business around the brand built on top of the code?

I didn't realize we'd stepped into The Twilight Zone and were now making arguments based on alternate-realities. Tyche should be here momentarily to support my position with on-topic, succinct and friendly points. Then Cratylus will come shamelessly plug his Java codebase 'Nightmare' based on it's simple license: "You can do anything you want with the code in exchange for your soul."

This has already been discussed. I've had three attorneys at law look at this now and the only thing the license makes clear is that the user of said codebase is intended not to make a profit of running the code for which various cases could be made, namely the ones I've voiced in regards to donations and operating costs

You can distort reality as much as you want, but you downloaded the DikuMUD code for free. I understand very well that even if you run your own server from your home network (like I do) there are costs involved. If you fail to see a problem with using free code as leverage to solicit donations that would help you with your very own enterprise of running a game server, then you will never understand what is plainly laid out in the DikuMUD license. Never.



I suspect that it would be less mind-boggling to you if you actually read my posts and stop misunderstanding my points. I'm OK with selling anything as long as you don't use the DikuMUD as leverage, and vice versa. Incidentally, the license and the quotes from the authors suggest the same thing.

This is my last post to the thread. Arguing the obvious is evidently a highly futile exercise, and I'll make a mental note to never attempt it again, not unless I'm being amply compensated for it.

I believe this is a DIKU license debate first.

No longer do we have to make do with the ill considered and half formed opinions of the "lawyer friend" or the "local law Professor". Instead we can now rely on the professional legal opinion of three (count them!) attorneys at law.

Now all you need to do is build a time machine so you can go back to the early 90s when someone might have cared.

Lol, you're preaching to the choir.

They suggest what I said. Either you are disagreeing with me and I don't know why, or you are utterly vehemently agreeing with me. I'm working off of their definition of directness. I'm not sure what bothers you about that.

I find it very insulting of you to go away in a huff stating that you are obviously correct even though you keep choosing to not answer fairly direct questions. :sad: Look, we can simply not agree, ok? Me finding something strange in what you say does not mean I think you are somehow stupid, but you seem to think that people who disagree with you are in fact stupidly missing the utterly obvious.

I usually, at a minimum, want to know the names of the lawyers giving me legal council before I do anything but ignore it. I'm able to make nuanced opinions without resorting to referring to my legal professional friends.

I also don't know why you seem to think I need your syntax highlighting.

I'm glad to see you've finally caught up with the times ;)

I consulted 3 attorneys general and 2 high court justices.

I tried to consult the MudBytes community, but they are clueless.

I consulted Thor and Odin and they said they were happy to come down from Asgard for a round of smiting whoever breaks the DikuMUD licence, after which we can go out drinking.

You should feel at home then since in your short history here you've done nothing but troll and make cluelessly glib statements.

I offered Charlie Sheen some blow so that he'd render an opinion on the matter, figuring that he's above the law and thus should have authority over the matter. He said he'd get back to me, and that he was winning!