31 Oct, 2013, Grieffels wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
Is it possible to remove Diku/Rom/Merc etc from your greeting and add it to the MOTD? It would just look cleaner if I was able too, however, I don't want to break any of the rules. Would that be allowed?
31 Oct, 2013, Tyche wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Grieffels said:
Is it possible to remove Diku/Rom/Merc etc from your greeting and add it to the MOTD? It would just look cleaner if I was able too, however, I don't want to break any of the rules. Would that be allowed?

Yes and No.
The Diku credits must appear somewhere in the login process before beginning to play. So yes they can be moved to the MOTD.
MERC credits appear in a help file. Not really applicable.
The ROM credits must be visible on the opening screen. So, no.
31 Oct, 2013, Grieffels wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
Alrighty bud, thanks. So as long as ROM is in greeting, Diku is before entering play mode and MERC is in a helpfile, everything is golden?
31 Oct, 2013, Tyche wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
Grieffels said:
Alrighty bud, thanks. So as long as ROM is in greeting, Diku is before entering play mode and MERC is in a helpfile, everything is golden?

Perhaps. ROM has more specific instructions regarding placement on the screen in the license. And one might be using snippets that require credits.
31 Oct, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 5th comment:
Votes: 0
While I'm all for giving credit where credit's due, a license that is anal-retentive about such things deserves you finding a way to follow the exact letter of the license in a way that makes YOUR vision work, not theirs, since they long ago moved on to other jobs and projects.

I'd be tempted to look into the exact wording and see what's required, and what's forbidden. One possible alternative might be to have the opening title screen show the credits and then send you to the real title/login screen after the user hits return, or a timeout expires. If you detect the client capability, you could also change the font size to make the credits be less intrusive of the limited real-estate.

Normally, I'd not suggest being a jerk about it… but I wasn't aware the ROM authors were obnoxious enough to make such a specific requirement.
31 Oct, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 6th comment:
Votes: 0
ROM authors: Include our names in the login sequence.

Mud owner: Okay, it's in background-coloured text and scrolls to the top of the 100-line login screen so nobody ever sees it, but I've followed the wording of the licence!

ROM author: New release! This time you have to put the credits in a place that people can actually see them.

quixadhal: You anal-retentive jerk!
31 Oct, 2013, Jodah wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
LOL! 20 years and you guys still think you'll get in trouble for not following a license they can't enforce anyway!
31 Oct, 2013, plamzi wrote in the 8th comment:
Votes: 0
Jodah said:
LOL! 20 years and you guys still think you'll get in trouble for not following a license they can't enforce anyway!


Or, maybe people are just trying to respect the wishes of people whose work they are using. You should try it some time.
31 Oct, 2013, Hades_Kane wrote in the 9th comment:
Votes: 0
Jodah said:
LOL! 20 years and you guys still think you'll get in trouble for not following a license they can't enforce anyway!


Jodah, this is a much more developer heavy forum than what you are used to on TMC. That said, I think you'll also find the tolerance for the kind of "lol who cares about licenses" positions you would advocate on TMC a lot lower here.

That said, I applaud the OP for the concern on respecting the wishes of the creators whose work they were gracious enough to allow him to build upon. Even if he can't "get in trouble" (his original post didn't seem to indicate that was his concern anyway), he is still looking to honor the requests and the spirit of the licenses, which is commendable. It's about giving credit where credit is due and showing respect for those whose you are using.

The only reason I'm bothering to respond to such a trollish post in the first place is it is a highly irresponsible position to be advocating, and secondly, this is only your second post here, and I'm the man of a million chances / benefit of the doubt kind of thing, and given the possibility that you may have any interest in getting along with the others here, I felt that an unofficial nudge toward the community standards here might do you some good.
31 Oct, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 10th comment:
Votes: 0
Kavir, I have no problem placing them where they can be seen… I *DO* have a problem with being told specifically where and how they're displayed when it is a detriment to my own artistic design.

How many actual real money-making video games have the various technology symbols used (CryEngine, DivX, etc) displayed as the VERY FIRST THING YOU SEE? I can't think of any. Many of them are full-screen splash animations shown before you can play or log in, but pretty much the game's screen usually comes up first.

Let's try a couple of my games at random:

Dishonored – 6 screens before the start menu. Zenimax, Bethesda, Arkane studios, THEN Unreal Engine, Scaleform, and finally the loading screen.
Portal 2 – 3 screens before the start menu. Valve, Powered by Source, and then the loading screen.

I'm sure I could find plenty more. I might even find a couple where the engine was built 100% in-house and thus comes up right away.

My point is though, the ROM codebase is the equivalent of the Unreal Engine, or the Source Engine. It's not the game, it's the technology toolkit that makes the game easier to code. The ROM authors certainly deserve credit, and certainly deserve to be mentioned in a prominent place, but dictating that it MUST be on the first opening screen is arrogant and egotistical.

So yes, I consider that to be anal-retentive, and as such I would follow their license out of respect for it being licensed code, NOT out of respect for the artistic wishes of the authors, since they clearly have no such respect for my own work.
31 Oct, 2013, KaVir wrote in the 11th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
Kavir, I have no problem placing them where they can be seen… I *DO* have a problem with being told specifically where and how they're displayed when it is a detriment to my own artistic design.

They wouldn't have needed to if people hadn't done the very thing you were proposing earlier - looking for loopholes in the wording of the licence.

Fortunately there's nothing forcing you to use their codebase. If you don't like the licence, pick another codebase, or create your own.
01 Nov, 2013, Runter wrote in the 12th comment:
Votes: 0
Quote
How many actual real money-making video games have the various technology symbols used (CryEngine, DivX, etc) displayed as the VERY FIRST THING YOU SEE? I can't think of any. Many of them are full-screen splash animations shown before you can play or log in, but pretty much the game's screen usually comes up first.


Fallacy. They very well may have not chose to use a license that requires them to display it. That says absolutely nothing about the ability of the license owner to require it nor the obligations of you to follow it after choosing to use the codebase.
01 Nov, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 13th comment:
Votes: 0
Runter said:
Quote
How many actual real money-making video games have the various technology symbols used (CryEngine, DivX, etc) displayed as the VERY FIRST THING YOU SEE? I can't think of any. Many of them are full-screen splash animations shown before you can play or log in, but pretty much the game's screen usually comes up first.


Fallacy. They very well may have not chose to use a license that requires them to display it. That says absolutely nothing about the ability of the license owner to require it nor the obligations of you to follow it after choosing to use the codebase.


It says quite a bit about most commercial companies being less anal-retentive than the ROM codebase authors.
01 Nov, 2013, Kjwah wrote in the 14th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
Runter said:
Quote
How many actual real money-making video games have the various technology symbols used (CryEngine, DivX, etc) displayed as the VERY FIRST THING YOU SEE? I can't think of any. Many of them are full-screen splash animations shown before you can play or log in, but pretty much the game's screen usually comes up first.


Fallacy. They very well may have not chose to use a license that requires them to display it. That says absolutely nothing about the ability of the license owner to require it nor the obligations of you to follow it after choosing to use the codebase.


It says quite a bit about most commercial companies being less anal-retentive than the ROM codebase authors.


Don't most commercial companies have pretty nifty legal teams? You can be a little more relaxed about your license when you have a legal team and the money to defend it. :D
01 Nov, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 15th comment:
Votes: 0
Kjwah said:
Don't most commercial companies have pretty nifty legal teams? You can be a little more relaxed about your license when you have a legal team and the money to defend it. :D


Most companies do indeed. However, since most companies are creating their products for the sole purpose of making a profit, spending the money on a legal team is part of the investment to ensure a profit is made.

Since ROM is a free MUD engine based on Merc, another free MUD engine which in turn was based on DikuMUD, a violently free MUD engine whose license still prevents any direct commercial gains to this day, I really don't see why they felt their own work was so superior to the work of their predecessors did, that they decided to make such a specific demand. It's as if they wanted to make sure everyone knew THEIR names, but were OK with people not noticing the Merc or DikuMUD authors who did the heavy lifting before them.

Go figure. ;)
01 Nov, 2013, Tyche wrote in the 16th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
Normally, I'd not suggest being a jerk about it… but I wasn't aware the ROM authors were obnoxious enough to make such a specific requirement.

No it wasn't because they were obnoxious, it's because they were afflicted with a black acrimonious humour.
02 Nov, 2013, Hades_Kane wrote in the 17th comment:
Votes: 0
quixadhal said:
Kjwah said:
Don't most commercial companies have pretty nifty legal teams? You can be a little more relaxed about your license when you have a legal team and the money to defend it. :D


Most companies do indeed. However, since most companies are creating their products for the sole purpose of making a profit, spending the money on a legal team is part of the investment to ensure a profit is made.

Since ROM is a free MUD engine based on Merc, another free MUD engine which in turn was based on DikuMUD, a violently free MUD engine whose license still prevents any direct commercial gains to this day, I really don't see why they felt their own work was so superior to the work of their predecessors did, that they decided to make such a specific demand. It's as if they wanted to make sure everyone knew THEIR names, but were OK with people not noticing the Merc or DikuMUD authors who did the heavy lifting before them.

Go figure. ;)


And well, that was their right.

Just as everyone else has the right to circumvent this by picking a different codebase, or maintaining a ton of the ROM functionality by setting up a Merc based MUD and avoiding whatever else the ROM author(s) tacked onto it.

I am not obligated to include Diku/Merc on my greet screen (the initial screen, not the login sequence), but I do anyway. I am obligated to display ROM's, but I don't mind either. If I did, I would pick a different codebase.

Regardless of whether or not this makes Russ Taylor a nazi for requiring a single line of text in someone's greet screen is it's own debate, this one originated with what can someone do to minimize the authors/credits in their greet screen and/or login sequence. This comes across like arguing for the sake of arguing a point that no one else is really trying to argue.
02 Nov, 2013, quixadhal wrote in the 18th comment:
Votes: 0
There's an old saying… "You catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar".

Personally, I have no aversion to adding the authors to the opening screen, and in fact I do so for WileyMUD. However, I take objection to the ROM team forcing the issue, and were I to run a ROM-based MUD, I would do everything I could to follow the exact letter of their license while thwarting their intent as best I could. Not because I dislike ROM, not because I'm trying to steal their code or even take away from their achievement, but because I dislike being treated like a thief.
02 Nov, 2013, Jodah wrote in the 19th comment:
Votes: 0
LOL! The only ones treating you like thieves are all here in this thread. The original authors don't care and would lose in court anyway.
02 Nov, 2013, Ssolvarain wrote in the 20th comment:
Votes: 0
Hasn't this trolling gone on long enough?

Quix and jodah are both being contrary for the sole purpose of argument.

We pretty much all know where this is going now that the OP's question has been answered.
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