14 Sep, 2007, Ryanicus wrote in the 1st comment:
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Hey Folks,

I've recently begun MUD development, so I've been trying to find some good forum communities. I originally posted this on TMC… might as well introduce myself here as well.

In the late 90s I played Thieves World as Slugworth, a random-load-eq-and-stone-fist-abusing mage with ridiculous barehanded damage. Now, when time allows, I play Akimbo, a bioware-reach-and-improved-attribute-abusing cyclops mage on Awakened Worlds. I've loved shadowrun since 2nd addition and I think AW does it best. Most lately, I'm working on an, as yet, nameless MUD from CWG Buddha.

First, what is a twink? Be wary of applying this revered title as a blanket term for all lamers, n00bs, grinders and script kiddies. Twinking requires not just grinding (though some of this will probably be necessary) but an extensive knowledge of the entire MUD system, including mechanics of combat, stats of items, behavior of zones/mobs, etc. Often the twink will examine the code, whether publicly available or not :0 The twink must then distill this information into a comprehensive plan to consolidate power quickly and efficiently; in a way that has not been conceived before. What the twink does with this power varies wildly depending a number of factors such as zodiac sign, time of day and whether he/she got laid recently.

It is very important to note that the true twink does not "cheat" or do anything that is forbidden in MUD policy such as botting or trading items between characters. This would nullify the inherent purpose of the twink: testing and pushing the shadowy depths, the seldom-probed crevices, and the uncertain limits of the MUD world.

Secondly, you can't get rid of us so stop complaining and learn to understand that, in fact, you need us. We are like the bubbles in a carpenter's level. We let admins know the foundation isn't quite balanced yet (harkens back to the "which came first the twink or the imbalance" question but that is a subject for another post). The best twinks will make admins aware (if they're paying attention), of imbalances that create a possibility of catastrophic uber-characters before every player has one.

Thirdly, being a twink does not mean one has sworn a sacred, secret oath not to RP. In fact, twinks who RP add a desirable epic dimension to the world… Some of our favorite and most memorable characters of fantasy were unabashed twinks (Gandalf, Elric, Odysseus etc.). Cheers.

-ryanicus
14 Sep, 2007, Kayle wrote in the 2nd comment:
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Um.. Huh?
14 Sep, 2007, Kjwah wrote in the 3rd comment:
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14 Sep, 2007, Hades_Kane wrote in the 4th comment:
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Some of my most valued players, testers, bug finders, etc. are twinks. If it weren't for them pushing our new systems, we wouldn't be able to keep certain aspects within a reasonable range even at their most extreme.
15 Sep, 2007, Cratylus wrote in the 5th comment:
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I find "twink" more derogatory than "noob" or "n00b" even. I
think this is the first time I've seen the term referred to
as non-pejorative.

Out of curiosity I looked it up to see if it was
me that was behind the curve.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...

Even definition 2, which tends to make it sound not so
bad, has strong connotations of a sugar-daddy
pederastic relationship.

Maybe in MMORPG's "twink" is a word undergoing
amelioration, but in mudding circles in general I
haven't seen it used that way.

"Twink" sounds like a disparaging insult to me, and
that's how I've seen it used up to today.


-Crat
http://lpmuds.net
15 Sep, 2007, Brinson wrote in the 6th comment:
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A twink, in my exprience in MMORPGS, is someone who finds out how a certain skill/spell works and leans the situation to his advantage. Like they figure out that if they wield a mace, stand on one foot, aim left, and wear a bunch of +dex eq, assassination will always land.

In my opinion they're shittier than your average noob, as they intentionally and knowingly abuse knowledge.
15 Sep, 2007, Hades_Kane wrote in the 7th comment:
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In my gaming circles, particularly the LARP circles where I used to play a lot of Vampire: the Masquerade, the term was usually "power twink" where the term was sometimes used toward the player, but usually more toward the character itself, which was generally characterized by selecting Physical Traits, Merits, Disciplines, Weapons, and numerous other combinations of things that would maximize the character's ability to deal out damage. It wasn't normally used as an insult, at least in our chapter where a good portion of our characters were combat heavy.

Back when I first started on the internet and in chat rooms, "newbie" was used as an insult, but in most MUD circles the term as spelled like that normally doesn't entail anything insulting. So I think it's just a matter of the circles where you were first introduced to the term.

For me, a "twink" is someone that number crunches to an almost obsessive amount to reach, within the legal limits of the game, the strongest outcome within a given area. I don't particularly care for that play-style, as I make most of my decisions in a game based on the roleplay of the character, but that's where some people find their fun in the game and as long as the Admins of the game are able to make balancing adjustments that won't nerf those characters but that will still maintain balance, then I say more power to them. Afterall, people generally focused in one particular element will often suffer in others, so with great power generally comes a great weakness.
15 Sep, 2007, Conner wrote in the 8th comment:
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Oh, I don't know, sometimes it's good to bring that ol' nerf bat out and give it a bit of exercise every now and again. :tongue:
15 Sep, 2007, Midboss wrote in the 9th comment:
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Nerf bat? Psh, wimp. Gotta use the Nerf Bomb. It's the only way! Otherwise, how do you intend to "kill thiefs"?
15 Sep, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 10th comment:
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Cratylus said:
I find "twink" more derogatory than "noob" or "n00b" even. I
think this is the first time I've seen the term referred to
as non-pejorative.

Out of curiosity I looked it up to see if it was
me that was behind the curve.


Wikipedia also has a pretty thorough description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinking

"In computer role-playing games and MMORPGs, twinking refers to outfitting a new character or player with items or other resources that are not normally available to new or low-level characters."

Also:

"In online text-based role-playing games such as MUDs and MU*s, twinking may include, but is not limited to:

* Denial-of-service or "DoS" attacks;
* Hacking the server;
* Creating an invincible or extremely powerful character with which the twink will seek to dominate in role-play;
* Aggravating and attacking the game administration and/or game community;
* God-moding;
* Powergaming;
* Metagaming - for example, creating a character which will guess plot-points that they would not otherwise know had the player themselves not known it."


The first definition (outfitting a character with powerful equipment) is the one I've usually heard "twink" refer to within the context of muds, but I've also heard it used as a general derogatory term for undesirable players.

What the original poster refers to as a "twink" I would call an "explorer" (based on the Bartle definition) or just a "skilled player" - at worst, perhaps a "min-maxer" or "powergamer".
20 Sep, 2007, Kayle wrote in the 11th comment:
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Ok. So after being shown this by Scoyn (Why he was looking this up, I don't know, but I think it had something to do with Zeno saying something on ichat about it), I have to wonder if urbandictionary.com is a reliable source for information when you have things like this on there…

Just my two cents…
20 Sep, 2007, kiasyn wrote in the 12th comment:
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Kayle said:
Ok. So after being shown this by Scoyn (Why he was looking this up, I don't know, but I think it had something to do with Zeno saying something on ichat about it), I have to wonder if urbandictionary.com is a reliable source for information when you have things like this on there…

Just my two cents…


actually it only reinforces it if thats an accurate definition.
20 Sep, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 13th comment:
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KaVir said:
What the original poster refers to as a "twink" I would call an "explorer" (based on the Bartle definition) or just a "skilled player" - at worst, perhaps a "min-maxer" or "powergamer".

If we're talking about somebody trying to maximize everything for greatest efficiency (as a min-maxer or powergamer would) it'd actually be the Achiever player type. An Explorer would be more likely to try combinations, bad and good, just to see what they were like, but not necessarily with the explicit goal of finding the best character type.
20 Sep, 2007, Tyche wrote in the 14th comment:
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Here's the definition that's in the old Mud Dictionary.

Quote
Twink, n.
Player who isonly interested in scoring points.Typically twinks abuse channels ,do not follow rules and communicate little using terse idiomsconsisting entirely of acronyms. They will do anythingto obtain the best eq , stats , ac , etc. Obnoxiousand boastful. Probably exclusive to combat games.Example 1: Psi's who don't actually knowhow to get around a zone , they just portal intothe mobs with the best xp .Example 2: Newbie who expects adepts or other higher level playersto give him the best eq and to take him on xp runs so that hecan level quickly with little work.
See: powergamer , spam .
20 Sep, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 15th comment:
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DavidHaley said:
KaVir said:
What the original poster refers to as a "twink" I would call an "explorer" (based on the Bartle definition) or just a "skilled player" - at worst, perhaps a "min-maxer" or "powergamer".

If we're talking about somebody trying to maximize everything for greatest efficiency (as a min-maxer or powergamer would) it'd actually be the Achiever player type.


The original poster said:

"Twinking requires not just grinding (though some of this will probably be necessary) but an extensive knowledge of the entire MUD system, including mechanics of combat, stats of items, behavior of zones/mobs, etc. Often the twink will examine the code, whether publicly available or not :0 The twink must then distill this information into a comprehensive plan to consolidate power quickly and efficiently; in a way that has not been conceived before. What the twink does with this power varies wildly depending a number of factors such as zodiac sign, time of day and whether he/she got laid recently."

This would seem to fit more with Bartle's definition of an explorer than an achiever: http://www.brandeis.edu/pubs/jove/HTML/v...

"Explorers delight in having the game expose its internal machinations to them. They try progressively esoteric actions in wild, out-of-the-way places, looking for interesting features (ie. bugs) and figuring out how things work."

Also note:

"Achievers tend to regard explorers as losers: people who have had to resort to tinkering with the game mechanics because they can't cut it as a player…In essence, more explorers will mean that fewer of the really powerful objects will be around around for the achievers to use, the explorers having used their arcane skills to obtain them first so as to use them in their diabolical experiments… This can cause achievers to become frustrated, and leave. More importantly, perhaps, the number of explorers affects the *rate of advancement* of achievers, because it determines whether or not they have to work out all those tiresome puzzles themselves."

For Bartle's explorer, "The real fun comes only from discovery", while "Achievers regard points-gathering and rising in levels as their main goal, and all is ultimately subserviant to this". The original poster refers to "the inherent purpose of the twink" as "testing and pushing the shadowy depths, the seldom-probed crevices, and the uncertain limits of the MUD world".
20 Sep, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 16th comment:
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It's a question of intent more than action. The explorer wants to gain knowledge and discover things, the achiever wants to do it to gain power. Since you gave power-gaming and min-maxing as synonyms, and those words imply (IMO, at least) the latter intent and not the former, that would land you in the achiever category. Your last paragraph shows this difference in intent quite clearly, and it seems to be going against your previous paragraphs, so I'm unsure what you're arguing.
20 Sep, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 17th comment:
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DavidHaley said:
It's a question of intent more than action. The explorer wants to gain knowledge and discover things, the achiever wants to do it to gain power. Since you gave power-gaming and min-maxing as synonyms, and those words imply (IMO, at least) the latter intent and not the former, that would land you in the achiever category.


I didn't give them as synonyms; I said I might call such players "at worst, perhaps a "min-maxer" or "powergamer"." Those two terms could apply to any of Bartle's four suits, but that fact that I'd explicitly said I would call such players "explorers" should have made the context pretty clear.
20 Sep, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 18th comment:
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I realize you said you would call them explorers, that is in fact what I was disputing to begin with. I am arguing that the intent of the explorer is to learn the system not to maximize efficiency but to gain knowledge; the intent of the achiever is to gain knowledge about the system in order to maximize efficiency. In other words, what matters is which goal is subservient. For the explorer, knowledge is paramount; for the achiever, optimization.

In the context of this discussion, given the various quoted definitions of 'twink', it seems to me that the twink is interesting in optimizing efficiency in order to build the most powerful character. The twink is not necessarily interested in exploring every last room of the game, discovering all the secrets laid in by the builders, unless they give extra power for the character.

Anyhow, this is a rather stratospheric debate, with rather little consequence in the real world… :smile:
20 Sep, 2007, KaVir wrote in the 19th comment:
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Quote
I realize you said you would call them explorers, that is in fact what I was disputing to begin with.


I said I would call them explorers based on Bartle's definition:

"Explorers delight in having the game expose its internal machinations to them. They try progressively esoteric actions in wild, out-of-the-way places, looking for interesting features (ie. bugs) and figuring out how things work."

"Achievers regard points-gathering and rising in levels as their main goal, and all is ultimately subserviant to this. Exploration is necessary only to find new sources of treasure, or improved ways of wringing points from it."

I felt the original poster's definition fell primarily into the explorer category based his view that "the inherent purpose of the twink" is "testing and pushing the shadowy depths, the seldom-probed crevices, and the uncertain limits of the MUD world."

Although the original poster does also mention that the twink should use his "extensive knowledge of the entire MUD system" to consolidate power, he clarified that it should be "in a way that has not been conceived before"; as Bartle said in his description of explorers, "The real fun comes only from discovery".

I disagree with the original poster's definition of 'twink', and thus my response. If you disagree with Bartle's definition of 'explorer', it might be better to take it to another thread.
20 Sep, 2007, David Haley wrote in the 20th comment:
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I get the distinct impression that we are talking past each other. As such, and considering how trivial this discussion is (as it serves no purpose, and nothing constructive is coming of it) I'm not sure it's worth your or my time to continue this particular issue. :smile:
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