20 Oct, 2015, Hades_Kane wrote in the 21st comment:
I think I tend to lean closer to Quix's train of thought that rules, some semblance of logic, etc. are necessary for proper world building.
Largely, I think enough rules or logic needs to be in place where magic doesn't basically become deus ex machina.
I haven't READ LotR, but going just off the movies… the eagles were one of those things that could have (and probably should have) been that. It felt as times though Gandalf just kinda forgot he could summon these large birds to travel vast distances. I mean sure, doing a flyby over Mt. Doom on one and just dropping the ring from the sky might not have been the best of ideas (Orcs have bows, afterall), but that sure woulda cut down on some travel time, no? But that large logic hole aside, I do like that magic was used sparingly, and I took Gandalf's line about there being a handful of magic rings in existence and it wasn't wise to use any of them lightly to be, generally, a statement on magic in general. Other worlds kind of boil down the concept to "all magic has consequences" so you didn't use it unless you had to, because, well, it's gonna come back and bite you.
But with all that in mind, we approached magic on End of Time with a set of rules… not necessarily rigidly defined, because after all, it's magic and I don't think should make TOO much sense (otherwise its science).
Our magic and indeed the very nature of our universe exists on a concept of order/chaos and elemental forces (designated by color). Basically take the Star of David, and one "triangle" is order, the other is chaos, and along each point is an elemental designation. The triangle of order contains the elemental concepts of Blue (Water), Green (Earth), White (Holy) and the triangle of chaos has Red (fire), Yellow (Air), Black (Unholy). Every being has a balance of the two forces, and each has a primary and secondary elemental align. If you are red primary, then you have the choice of green or white as your secondary (as they sit adjacent to red on the star). Each "color" has 4 spells that are assigned to it, and the bulk of our magic comes from the manipulation of those forces. You can easily combine adjacent elements (red+green = magma, white+red = photon), and while it is "bending the rules" of magic a bit, there are other, more powerful spells that can be cast by combining various combos of colors/elements, but these are typically more volatile, harder to control, harder to cast, and costlier.
The concept behind casting, itself, is that in the same way every being has order/chaos and a combination of elements within themselves, the planet and indeed the very fabric of existence is tied into these base, primal forces. Every living thing, particularly the planet, is infused with all encompassing energy (the lifestream for FF7 fans, more or less the idea of "the force" for star wars fans)… Magic is created by manipulating this energy field by deep concentration and tracing specific patterns "in the air" or into/throughout the energy/surrounding mana. As a spell is cast, it directly affects the elemental balance in the room as well.
This is really kind of the tip as far as how are rule system works. There are things that step lightly out of these boundaries, some things that don't fit within them at all (non elemental magic, for example)… and even some things like Vampires existing as a twisted bastardization of this energy, cut off from it and requiring them to drink blood to absorb the necessary life energy from others since they are cut off and have no way to naturally harness/replenish their own energy. Even our class system of class promotion follows along this general concept of balance and chaos/order.
So yeah, there's definite logic and rules in place, but its not broken down to a level where we've boxed ourselves into a corner with not being able to pull something wild and crazy, but it IS broken down to a level where problems within the world can't just be hand waved and explained away. We didn't ruin the mystique of it by saying "hey look, midichlorians!", either. Things generally have to fit within our basic concept, so there are guidelines for players, builders, ME to play within, but it's still magic, it's still mysterious to a degree, it's still what calls to our imaginations and our sense of wonder.
a set of rules… not necessarily rigidly defined, because after all, it's magic and I don't think should make TOO much sense (otherwise its science).
I've heard it said that advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. Do you know how an alternating current works? Cause I sure don't, yet I use it every day.
And as for the lotr stuff, what kind of limitation would there be if sauron got ahold of the one ring? There's no system in place to define or limit his power. Would it be too far of a stretch to say he could simply do anything, because he had such powerful magic?
Magic in Tolkiens world is fading to begin with as the age of men is coming.
But lets talk about the eternal champion incarnations please. Go tell me it sucks just because there is a freaking GOD in a weapon…. Go tell me the the dancers at the end of time sucks because they can do virtually anything by a simple twist of a ring.
No there is absolutely no problem about suspension of disbelief when a I reapeat MAGICALLY EQUIPPED fighter, trumps on an army of farmers….
Hell, you want reality, I will give you one: a single plane can kill millions of people, right now on earth. And those millions people coudl thrown whatever they want at it….it would change nothing.
It is then so irrealistic that a single man can take down a single village….when right here right now, without a single ounce of magic, a single man can destroy to the ground in blazing flames millions of people at once ?
I dare you tell me that what we can do in reality is suddenly for some reason irrealistic in a magical world….I dare you.
20 Oct, 2015, Hades_Kane wrote in the 24th comment:
"Would it be too far of a stretch to say he could simply do anything, because he had such powerful magic?"
Again, basing on the movies here, but…
He DID have the ring… Isildur(sp) got a lucky shot in and sliced his finger. While in possession of the ring, it seemed his natural strengths were heightened and he was nigh unstoppable (and indeed, as I understand, he spent and infused a significant portion of his near god-like power into the ring itself), but nothing ever gave me the impression he'd basically be omnipotent. I've also always assumed that the "one ring to bind them" and "rule them" and whatever gave him some level of manipulation/mind control over the bearers of the other rings of power, and so the TRUE power of the ring was more in his ability to have dominion over those who bore the rings, who in turn were the leaders of their respective nations/races, while him regaining access to and increase his abilities second to that.
Only reason there is so few magic in lord of the ring is because you are at the end of the magic time anyway Ilúvatar decided it would be so It is not because magic could not defeat armies, but because he specifically prevented it. Basically the rule is: magic cannot be used except to repel people disobeying me and using magic to begin with… It is a pretty stupid world in itself here everything is pre ordained anyway, and where yuou know what ill happen from the beginning. It is exactly like the bible in itself, quite boring. But with better graphics.
21 Oct, 2015, quixadhal wrote in the 26th comment:
So, let's assume you are correct Rarva. Magic lets you do anything you can imagine, and thus be all powerful.
Why would *ANY* player *EVER* play anything but a mage? Surely, if magic is so amazingballs, anyone not directly controlling it is an insect, not even worth stepping on? In such a game system, you'd never waste the player's time with any non-magical threat, since a simple wave of the hand would turn an army of orcs into pretty butterflies.
Likewise, no sane player would ever want to be a fighter. Why would you risk relying on your magical weapons and armor, which might break or be disarmed? If that happened, you'd be killed instantly by even a novice mage, right?
Since we are talking about a game system, where PRESUMABLY the goal is to make something that players can enjoy and become immersed in, in your worldview of magic > all, there is only one class of character worth bothering with, the mage. There are only two types of enemies worth fighting, magic users and magical creatures. The only loot worth picking up is gear or spellbooks which enhance your spellcasting power. Money is pointless. Armor is pointless. Anything non-magical might as well be removed from the game entirely.
Oh, and the game setting is also irrelevant, since your magic allows the characters to change the world around them at will. With no rules or structure, they can just wish things to be different, and *POOF*, they are. MAGIC! So, you might as well give every player full access to code, so they can redo everything to their liking, since that's the only way your kind of chaos magic can work properly.
Because Quix, in a magical world, there are stuff like…magical items that renders pure magical user quie inefficient… As I said you are so stuck on your idea that a physical fighter is bound to pure physical forces that you cannot imagine anything else. What a poor imagination you have.
>The only loot worth picking up is gear or spellbooks which enhance your spellcasting power.
Or items that neutralizes/tone down magic spell power. (oooo magic ARMORS)
As I said your total lack of imagination is baffling in this case.