27 Aug, 2009, shasarak wrote in the 22nd comment:
Hades_Kane said:
It's easier to save up small change and forget about it. Consider it a form of savings. If I decide to start putting up $50 out of every paycheck in the bank, should I have just instead decided to go buy something for $50 at a shop instead every week? Numerous people I know, including myself, accumulate a lot of change and then cash it in on "rainy days" as it were. There's been times my brother or my parents have more or less been out of money for the week, cashed in their change and got anywhere between $50 and $200 which then got them by the rest of the week… got them gas, food, or whatever. Had they spent all that change as they accumulated it, that change wouldn't have been there when they needed it. I'm baffled by your being baffled, truth be told.
shasarak said:
This is a sort of behaviour which I find absolutely baffling. Had you not considered using your change to buy things in shops? When I accumulate (say) 50 pence in change I use it to buy something that costs 50p (like a newspaper, say). That way I never build up more than a few coins at a time.
tphegley said:
i just took three change bowls to the bank the other day and had almost $100 in it.
This is a sort of behaviour which I find absolutely baffling. Had you not considered using your change to buy things in shops? When I accumulate (say) 50 pence in change I use it to buy something that costs 50p (like a newspaper, say). That way I never build up more than a few coins at a time.
It's easier to save up small change and forget about it. Consider it a form of savings. If I decide to start putting up $50 out of every paycheck in the bank, should I have just instead decided to go buy something for $50 at a shop instead every week? Numerous people I know, including myself, accumulate a lot of change and then cash it in on "rainy days" as it were. There's been times my brother or my parents have more or less been out of money for the week, cashed in their change and got anywhere between $50 and $200 which then got them by the rest of the week… got them gas, food, or whatever. Had they spent all that change as they accumulated it, that change wouldn't have been there when they needed it. I'm baffled by your being baffled, truth be told.
You're seriously suggesting that people are so hopelessly lacking in free-will that they are unable to resist spending money unless they physically remove it from their pocket? :surprised: Why not just, you know, not spend it?
Even if you do want to save $50 a week, and you are so weak-willed that the only way you can do it is to take the money out of your wallet and hide it, just put $50 in folding money in the jar at the beginning of the week. Saving it in change is a great deal less convenient, surely?
On top of that, tphegley was actually complaining about the physical volume of change that he had saved up. All he has to do reduce that is to save paper money instead of saving coins!
27 Aug, 2009, tphegley wrote in the 23rd comment:
shasarak said:
You're seriously suggesting that people are so hopelessly lacking in free-will that they are unable to resist spending money unless they physically remove it from their pocket? :surprised: Why not just, you know, not spend it?
Even if you do want to save $50 a week, and you are so weak-willed that the only way you can do it is to take the money out of your wallet and hide it, just put $50 in folding money in the jar at the beginning of the week. Saving it in change is a great deal less convenient, surely?
On top of that, tphegley was actually complaining about the physical volume of change that he had saved up. All he has to do reduce that is to save paper money instead of saving coins!
Even if you do want to save $50 a week, and you are so weak-willed that the only way you can do it is to take the money out of your wallet and hide it, just put $50 in folding money in the jar at the beginning of the week. Saving it in change is a great deal less convenient, surely?
On top of that, tphegley was actually complaining about the physical volume of change that he had saved up. All he has to do reduce that is to save paper money instead of saving coins!
Do you live in America Shasarak? Change (coins) comes every time you spend money. It's cumbersome and I don't want to have coins in my pocket. When I get change, when I get home, I throw it in a container because i don't want to mess with it. I seriously don't want to keep change in my pockets all the time. If you go to 5 different places and spend money then you have 5 different transactions of change in your pocket. That's quite a load of change. It's annoying. I don't have a man purse. I have a thin wallet that holds a couple plastic cards and maybe some paper bills. The only way to reduce change is to use debit cards, which I do about 95% of the time now.
I don't save change to save money, I throw change into a container because I don't want to mess with it. Some day I'll eventually take it to the bank. What you propose is for me to keep all my change in my pocket at all times so I can spend it, that's a deal more less convenient then paper in your pocket. I'd say I had around 10 lbs in change when I took it to the bank. I'm not keeping that in my pocket. I don't want an ounce of change in my pocket.
So maybe this clears it up. I DON"T like change(coins). I'm not saving it to save it, I just don't want to mess with it. Debit cards has reduced change drastically, but there are occasional times when I have paper money and use it, thus causing change.
27 Aug, 2009, Confuto wrote in the 24th comment:
Multiplying everything by 100 would not fix anything, and if I had actually paid attention in Macroeconomics 1 I might be able to confirm this suspicion I have that it would actually be damaging for the economy.
As for the whole small change deal. I don't see the point in keeping unused denominations of currency around - especially those that cost more to produce than they're actually worth. In Australia the smallest denomination of currency we have is 5c. Single cents still exit, just not physically, so when you're paying for something with cash you often end up having to round. This, I think, is a far more sensible approach than dealing solely in 25c blocks or something similar.
As for the whole small change deal. I don't see the point in keeping unused denominations of currency around - especially those that cost more to produce than they're actually worth. In Australia the smallest denomination of currency we have is 5c. Single cents still exit, just not physically, so when you're paying for something with cash you often end up having to round. This, I think, is a far more sensible approach than dealing solely in 25c blocks or something similar.
27 Aug, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 25th comment:
tphegley said:
Change (coins) comes every time you spend money. It's cumbersome and I don't want to have coins in my pocket.
That's about how it goes. Most of us get our money from wherever, go spend money on whatever, then go home to wherever. Chances are they have at least a few pennies in their pockets. It's sort of a practice to put your change away, because you don't need those few coins next time you go out. You just take the bills. The coins accumulate, and then on some rainy day you go spend them. I used to toss change all over my bedroom floor, because I'm lazy. When I counted it all up, because I was broke, I had 11 dollars in silver coins alone. That got me by for a bit.
If you have your own practice, then go ahead and do it. Being a jerk and telling people their way of life is stupid is…. Well, I think you can fill in that blank ;)
27 Aug, 2009, tphegley wrote in the 26th comment:
Ssolvarain said:
Being a jerk and telling people their way of life is stupid is…. Well, I think you can fill in that blank ;)
Who is this directed at?
27 Aug, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 27th comment:
The condescending vibes I'm picking up from Shasarak.
27 Aug, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 28th comment:
I'm not sure Shasarak is being condescending; I think this might be a cultural thing where he is just as baffled by your/our aversion to change as you/we are baffled by his lack of problems with it. The particular post he was replying to was a little odd, I'll agree, as it was basically saying that hiding away change was a way to trick oneself into not realizing one had it to spend.
27 Aug, 2009, Hades_Kane wrote in the 29th comment:
I'm not saying hiding change is a way to trick oneself into not realizing I had it.
Much like tphegley, I have a container at home I unload my change into. I have a wallet with a change pouch, and generally when it becomes uncomfortable to have in my back pocket, I put a lot of it into that container. When I'm driving my own car, I go through a fast food restaurant, when I get my change back, I generally put it in my ash tray, and when it starts to get full, I empty it into that container.
I have -no- idea how much change I have in there. I might be able to approximate the weight, but that's it.
If I'm running tight on money, I take it and cash it in. I know a whole lot of people that do the same thing. I don't have to do it very often, so when I do, I usually net a decent amount of cash.
It's not that different from the bank (I think Chase) that was offering a program where anytime you spend money on your card, it would round up to the nearest dollar and transfer the change into your savings account. If a bank is basically offering a program to do this for you, I don't understand why this seems to be such an unreasonable method to save up a little bit of money for a rainy day.
As far as the comment about people not having the willpower to resist spending money if they have it on them… I know at least a handful of people I would say that is a pretty accurate description of. I find it quite sad really… budgeting really isn't that difficult of a task, and it works so well to alleviate money related stress, but not everyone has that kind of mind when it comes to their finances.
Much like tphegley, I have a container at home I unload my change into. I have a wallet with a change pouch, and generally when it becomes uncomfortable to have in my back pocket, I put a lot of it into that container. When I'm driving my own car, I go through a fast food restaurant, when I get my change back, I generally put it in my ash tray, and when it starts to get full, I empty it into that container.
I have -no- idea how much change I have in there. I might be able to approximate the weight, but that's it.
If I'm running tight on money, I take it and cash it in. I know a whole lot of people that do the same thing. I don't have to do it very often, so when I do, I usually net a decent amount of cash.
It's not that different from the bank (I think Chase) that was offering a program where anytime you spend money on your card, it would round up to the nearest dollar and transfer the change into your savings account. If a bank is basically offering a program to do this for you, I don't understand why this seems to be such an unreasonable method to save up a little bit of money for a rainy day.
As far as the comment about people not having the willpower to resist spending money if they have it on them… I know at least a handful of people I would say that is a pretty accurate description of. I find it quite sad really… budgeting really isn't that difficult of a task, and it works so well to alleviate money related stress, but not everyone has that kind of mind when it comes to their finances.
27 Aug, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 30th comment:
Hades_Kane said:
It's not that different from the bank (I think Chase) that was offering a program where anytime you spend money on your card, it would round up to the nearest dollar and transfer the change into your savings account. If a bank is basically offering a program to do this for you, I don't understand why this seems to be such an unreasonable method to save up a little bit of money for a rainy day.
I think this is the kind of comment he's reacting to. His thesis seems to be that if you want to save, you should just save. That said, this seems like a fairly convenient way to save a little here and there, but I would never, ever recommend this as a method for saving money for the long term.
But I think the main comment he's reacting to is the one you made earlier:
Hades_Kane said:
Had they spent all that change as they accumulated it, that change wouldn't have been there when they needed it.
This makes it sound like they're not able to just save it, and need to use this trick of squirreling it away as a savings method.
Hades_Kane said:
As far as the comment about people not having the willpower to resist spending money if they have it on them… I know at least a handful of people I would say that is a pretty accurate description of.
It's sad enough when people have this problem with cash, which usually comes in relatively small amounts and by its nature is limited by trips to the ATM. But when you throw credit cards into the mix… :sad:
27 Aug, 2009, Koron wrote in the 31st comment:
Igabod said:
I was wondering what the results would be if the government issued a statement saying that the penny is now worth a dollar, the dollar worth a hundred dollars, and so on.
Congratulations, we've now got the same monetary system as Japan!
Igabod said:
Would this solve any problems the US Economy is currently experiencing?
No.
Igabod said:
Would this create more problems? Or would this even make any real difference aside from giving us smaller numbers?
The biggest problem it would create is the headache of people trying to do math. Essentially, you'd be taking the decimal point away from every transaction (so $2.00 becomes $200). Not a solution to anything and ultimately pointless.
27 Aug, 2009, Ssolvarain wrote in the 32nd comment:
David Haley said:
But when you throw credit cards into the mix..
There's no small amount of companies who are benefiting from the recent exchange of debts.
The credit accounts bought up by Chase bank have an increased interest rate, and the interest is retro-active to January the 1st. Not fun.
And for some fun trivia: China determines the worth of their own currency.
27 Aug, 2009, elanthis wrote in the 33rd comment:
Why do we need paper or coins at all? Last I checked it was 2009 and just about every worthwhile business transaction can be performed using a single piece of reusable plastic, be it a credit card, ATM card, debit card, or check card. Plastic is no longer synonymous with credit, so there's no reason to think that cash is safer or better for the economy than a plastic card.
Yes, yes, there are still places that only accept cash. **** 'em. They can get with the program or go out of business, I really don't care.
For people who want to horde their money, do it electronically. For example, I split my paycheck into several sub-accounts. Part of the check goes to pay for Income Tax. Part of the check goes into the Monthly Bill account. I pad my Misc. Expense account up to a certain dollar value and put the remainder in Savings. With few exceptions, my Savings just keeps growing and growing. My bills and taxes are always covered and I limit my misc. spending by a fixed amount per week, most of which just goes to food, coffee, and booze. It's the same general concept as having a coin deposit dish, except it's easier (many banks and direct deposit setups can do the split for you automatically).
A lot of people panic over the notation of purely electronic wealth, but honestly, I'd rather have a well designed bank system holding on to my money than have a thin piece of leather in my pocket or a small ceramic jug on my dresser keep it all for me. If legal tender gets stolen, it's gone, and you're screwed. If electronic funds get stolen, it's actually relatively easy to figure out who stole it, where it went, and insurance will cover it since they have records to prove that you really did have $5,000 stolen and that you aren't just claiming that jug on your dresser was full of $100 bills.
Yes, yes, there are still places that only accept cash. **** 'em. They can get with the program or go out of business, I really don't care.
For people who want to horde their money, do it electronically. For example, I split my paycheck into several sub-accounts. Part of the check goes to pay for Income Tax. Part of the check goes into the Monthly Bill account. I pad my Misc. Expense account up to a certain dollar value and put the remainder in Savings. With few exceptions, my Savings just keeps growing and growing. My bills and taxes are always covered and I limit my misc. spending by a fixed amount per week, most of which just goes to food, coffee, and booze. It's the same general concept as having a coin deposit dish, except it's easier (many banks and direct deposit setups can do the split for you automatically).
A lot of people panic over the notation of purely electronic wealth, but honestly, I'd rather have a well designed bank system holding on to my money than have a thin piece of leather in my pocket or a small ceramic jug on my dresser keep it all for me. If legal tender gets stolen, it's gone, and you're screwed. If electronic funds get stolen, it's actually relatively easy to figure out who stole it, where it went, and insurance will cover it since they have records to prove that you really did have $5,000 stolen and that you aren't just claiming that jug on your dresser was full of $100 bills.
27 Aug, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 34th comment:
Ssolvarain said:
And for some fun trivia: China determines the worth of their own currency.
Every country does (or could). It's just that most countries happen to agree to follow the market convention.
elanthis said:
Yes, yes, there are still places that only accept cash.
There are people who do not want to use cards as purchasers, not as merchants, typically for privacy reasons. It's not just a technological problem in terms of accepting cards.
28 Aug, 2009, Kline wrote in the 35th comment:
This idea reminds me of DBZ MUDS, multiplying things for the sake of bigger numbers: "LOL OMG WTF BBQZ!!!!! 9 BAZILLION-TRILLION!!!!!! I HAVE THE POWERRR!!!!!!!! 999999999999999999 DAMAGE!"
Sorry, I'll leave now :).
Sorry, I'll leave now :).
28 Aug, 2009, Chris Bailey wrote in the 36th comment:
Elanthis, I agree with most of what you have said aside from the last bit.
Elanthis said:
I'm concerned about switching to an entirely electronic currency system, have you looked at the stats on the FDIC lately?
insurance will cover it
28 Aug, 2009, tphegley wrote in the 37th comment:
Banks are insured (currently) up to like $250,000 of your money. I would say that no one here has above that
28 Aug, 2009, Kline wrote in the 38th comment:
But that insurance is built on the same premise as broadband: Over-selling; that not every subscriber will utilize it to the full extent in a single instance. FDIC doesn't have the funds to pay out $250k for every single account if the banking system were to just be "wiped out".
28 Aug, 2009, David Haley wrote in the 39th comment:
Kline said:
FDIC doesn't have the funds to pay out $250k for every single account if the banking system were to just be "wiped out".
The nice thing about being the government is that you can go into as much debt as you like, or at least, with a limit that is incredibly hard to reach. Let's estimate the US population with bank accounts at 200 million. 250,000,000 * 250,000 = 50,000,000,000,000 or 50 trillion. Consider what it would take for every single account in the entire system to vanish. Now consider that, were such an event to occur, dealing with deposit insurances would really be the least of our concerns.
Frankly I'd be far more worried about inflation than I would about accounts needing their insurance.
28 Aug, 2009, Igabod wrote in the 40th comment:
To be clear, I am not quite sure what I was intending with this conversion idea, I was dead exhausted and trying to sleep and had just had 2 beers when the idea struck me. I don't have any economic education other than what I've learned by watching the news and various political programs on sunday morning. Mainly I started this thread to get some conversation going cause we needed a good debate thread that wouldn't result in any tempers flaring up after the past couple weeks of debate over rules and whatnot.
As for the change bowl that Shasarak seems so confused by, I myself don't use plastic at all, I've had bad experiences with spending money and then forgetting that I spent it and then over-charging. So I only keep my checking account as a means to cash my pay check for free. I spend cash and when I get home at the end of the day I throw any change left in my pocket into a big jar. But while I'm still out and about, I will spend any change I have in my pocket just to get it out of there. Problem is that usually I get things that cost like $5.65 and I'll only have 45 cents in my pocket so I end up having to give them 6 bucks and what do ya know, I have 90 cents in my pocket. So change tends to accumulate rather quickly. I usually take my change jar in and dump it in the CoinStar machine (a machine that counts your change for you and gives you cash) every two weeks and get 30 - 35 dollars cash. This is not a means of saving money at all, I just don't want to carry a ton of change in my pockets that already carry a cell phone and a pack of cigarettes and a wallet and a lighter. Cell phone in left front pocket, wallet in back right pocket, cigs/lighter/change in my right front pocket. I don't use my back left pocket for some reason, I guess it just feels unnatural to me.
Sorry DH I know I should format the above paragraph but I am feeling lazy today.
As for the change bowl that Shasarak seems so confused by, I myself don't use plastic at all, I've had bad experiences with spending money and then forgetting that I spent it and then over-charging. So I only keep my checking account as a means to cash my pay check for free. I spend cash and when I get home at the end of the day I throw any change left in my pocket into a big jar. But while I'm still out and about, I will spend any change I have in my pocket just to get it out of there. Problem is that usually I get things that cost like $5.65 and I'll only have 45 cents in my pocket so I end up having to give them 6 bucks and what do ya know, I have 90 cents in my pocket. So change tends to accumulate rather quickly. I usually take my change jar in and dump it in the CoinStar machine (a machine that counts your change for you and gives you cash) every two weeks and get 30 - 35 dollars cash. This is not a means of saving money at all, I just don't want to carry a ton of change in my pockets that already carry a cell phone and a pack of cigarettes and a wallet and a lighter. Cell phone in left front pocket, wallet in back right pocket, cigs/lighter/change in my right front pocket. I don't use my back left pocket for some reason, I guess it just feels unnatural to me.
Sorry DH I know I should format the above paragraph but I am feeling lazy today.
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Anyhow, back to discussing how to solve the world's problems by multiplying money by 100 and eliminating coins.