Well I must say, Cats are a lot smarter with food when it comes to dogs. Cats are meant to prowl and get their food on their own, unless raised in isolation like house cats, but even then their instinct is to hunt mice. Cats wont over eat either, although dogs are known to not stop eating, but ive never heard of a POP and red lumpyness on the walls.

wasn't an attempt to change subject, was just an attempt at dark humor, but i guess that was a total failure. if i were trying to change subject i wouldn't have posted the comment right before that one.




I heartily disagree, my attitude isn't the reason for the decline, it's the code thieves that cause developers to not release work according to you. People like me just enjoy said stolen code. I have done nothing that would cause developers any ire. aside from me starting this thread that is. All I've done here is state my love for a derivative of a stolen code. I really don't see why i'm coming under fire for that. you people are all just jumping on this and taking my statements and twisting it to sound like i'm the person doing the wrong thing. I've never stolen anybody's work and i never will. i'll play a mud whether or not it's stolen cause frankly that's not my business. if it's open on a public port and it's a good game, why should i not enjoy it?

Because attitudes exactly like this are what spur code thieves on, because they know players like you won't give a crap about how they got the code, who got hurt by it being stolen, and won't have the moral fiber to stand up and say it's wrong no matter how much pleasure it brings them. The thieves figure their players will play point men for them and defend the action "it's a good mud I don't care if they stole the code, not my problem". I'll have to remember to drop by and steal some of your CDs to give to the local radio stations. After all, if it's playing on a public station and they're good songs, why should we not enjoy them? Even though you paid for the discs.

Code Theft is code theft. Whether it's a good mud or not. And thieves, and people who don't see a problem with it as long as it produces a mud they enjoy playing are why I'm never doing a public release of my base. I may release snippets from it; but never the whole thing.

I develop my base in my free time, between classes, and jobs (when I can keep one and not have my grades drop off..). I don't develop my base for players, the community, or what staff I have. I do it for me. Because it's something I enjoy doing. And sadly, it's people like you, Igabod, and Vryce, Locke, and any other code thieves that make me wonder sometimes why I still do it. Still haven't found an answer to that question either…

[Edit:] Ok, So I don't know for sure that Locke is a code thief. I do know however that he makes me sick with his bold claims to being the father of all OLCs.

Ok for one thing, I am NOT A CODE THIEF. I never have been and never will be. I never said code theft is right either, i just said i dont care about the origins of something great as long as i'm able to take advantage of it. If you found a hundred bucks laying on the ground, you'd pick it up and put it in your pocket and not care whether that money was meant to pay a doctors bill or if it was drug money. there's nothing that can be done about the fact that that hundred bucks was dropped, all you can do is reap the benefits of it. I can't change the fact that some jerks stole some code from kavir, but i sure as hell can enjoy the fact that they made something good out of it. so don't call me a thief cause you're dead wrong on that front.

In your scenario, the people listening to the radio station would be in the same position as i am on the code theft. They didn't do the theft, they can't do anything about the fact that the theft took place, all they can do is listen to the radio. The person who stole my cd's is the person who should receive the blame, NOT the listeners. The people at the radio station only get part of the blame if they knew the cd's were stolen before they took them from the thief.

Yes but in my little scenario with your CDs the person who stole them obviously knows he's a thief. He told the radio station they were stolen CDs. They played them anyway, knowing they were stolen. They announced it to the listening public, who are now also aware the CDs are stolen. They all collectively said they don't give a shit your CDs were stolen from you. They're getting to take advantage of it.

This is no different than what happened wit Godwars. The person who stole the code knows they're a thief. The host he ran to to install it was told the code was stolen. The players knew the codebase was stolen. Basically speaking, everyone knows the code has been stolen. So everyone involved is to blame for why the thieves think they've done nothing wrong since, like you, they run around saying they don't give a shit that the thief stole it as long as they get to take advantage of it.

In both cases everyone involved could have done something to stop it, but instead because they decided they'd rather take advantage of it, they gave a collective finger to the original injured party.

What can be done about godwars being stolen at this point in time? Nothing, cause Kavir did release godwars (true it was after the original theft) and either chose not to, or was unable to, go after the original thieves. And correct me if i am mistaken, but wasn't low4 created AFTER kavir released godwars? If i'm not wrong, then that means low4 isn't even a derivative of a stolen code, it's a derivative of a released code. Vampire wars was a derivative of the stolen code but Low4 wasn't.

In my eyes, you're no better then a code thief because you openly admit that you don't care where it came from as long as you can enjoy it. Saying you don't care about where it comes from and then turning around and trying to say it's bad, it contradictory, and makes you look like an ass. Also, by proclaiming that you don't care where it comes from, is also saying that you don't care how much time and effort KaVir put into his base, which in turn means that you don't care about the means, as long as you can enjoy the end.

And there's a saying about assuming things. I think it goes, "Don't assume, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me." If I found a hundred bucks, I'd do the right thing and turn it in to the police and tell them where I found it. But obviously, I'm the minority here. Being an honest citizen (perhaps veteran is the more appropriate term?) and all..

Far as I know, and KaVir can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was under the impression that the only reason GodWars was released was because it was stolen and all over the net anyway. I'm also pretty sure that's why he started GodWars II …

I'll keep that in mind when I send my goons to come get your car so I can take advantage of it. After all, if you can't do anything about it then obviously stealing it is completely ok and you should just sign the title over to me after I've put another 100,000 miles on it and let everyone I know have a turn at the wheel.

You, sir, are exactly the kind of person who has driven developers into either closed release or off the scene entirely. People like you are why I don't do any active development anymore. People like you are why I'm disgusted with where this community has gone in the last 5 years.

I'm gonna say it one more time, STEALING IS WRONG! I do not condone stealing anything, but i don't place blame on people that didn't commit the theft either. When i first played a Low4, i had no clue that godwars was a stolen code, i didn't even know there was a difference between rom and godwars at the time. I just knew that i liked it and that was all that mattered to me. Many years later i know that godwars was stolen and i deplore the theft. That stated, i still find godwars in general to be a fun code to play on. Now, if i could get a response to the question of when low4 came out (before or after kavir's release of godwars) i would appreciate it.

Couldn't tell you when Low4 was release, nor do I care as it's not relevant to the point. But since you're dead set on the hypocrisy of it and only succeeding in pissing me and others off, it's time for me to step off this thread before I say something truly nasty.

So.. Stealing is bad.. unless you can take advantage of it? Uh.. Hypocrit, anyone? It doesn't matter whether LoW4 was released before or after KaVir's official release, because until he corrects me or tells me I'm wrong, I'm going with it was only released because the code was already stolen to begin with.

I'm done here, I'm going to treat you like I treat every other code thief and those who don't care that they're supporting code thieves. I'm going to ignore you. Because no matter what you say from this point on, I'm only going to see, 'I don't mind thievery as long as I benefit from it.'

[Edit:] To adjust grammar… sleep deprivation is getting to me..

I think it's pretty clear by now that even if you don't understand it, you are doing something that causes developers ire.

What you are saying really is quite similar to using stolen material as long as you aren't the original thief. Yes, obviously you can't be blamed for doing so when you didn't know about it. But if, upon finding out, you proclaim strongly how happy you are that the theft took place, you are in fact essentially condoning the theft.



See in particular points 1, 2, 3.

Now really, it's a shame that my earlier advice didn't make it through, so let me try it again. :smile: It is really not going to be to your advantage to continue holding this position publicly. This conversation is really not going anywhere helpful (although it might be too late at this point).

Having dropped a $100 in Wal-Mart before and not being able to afford to eat that week…

If I'm in Wal-Mart and find a $100, I'm going to turn it into customer service.

I don't buy into the mentality that its okay to profit from other people's misfortune so long as you aren't the one who directly caused it.

I do buy into the mentality that supporting Theft, whether it be by "not caring" and playing a stolen game or actively stealing it, is wrong.

I don't use Mud Magic, don't release code there, and won't list my game there because I have a moral objection to the way the owner runs his site. It's not hurting him, sure, and it probably hurts me more than anything. But I feel its the right thing to do. Maybe if by making a stand, I'll influence others, and it will eventually create change. Chances are it won't, but I stand up for what I believe in.

I believe code-theft is wrong. If I started playing on the best, most fun MUD in the world and I found out it was based on stolen code? I'd quit playing it.

I personally think that by using or supporting things like this, a person is effectively condoning it and actively participating in it.

As I mentioned before, code theft and such is a very sensitive subject on sites like this because it is so developer heavy, and that you won't find much of a sympathetic ear.

I understand where you are coming from, I'm not calling you a thief personally, but I disagree with your mentality on the issue, and clearly so does most everyone else posting in this thread.

You'd probably be doing yourself a favor by letting this issue drop.