11 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
I saw some post about Ironclaw Online, on another forum I am too lazy to dig up the link for. The post elaborated on the mechanics of how their commands work, and the way players annotate them with adverbs, to give them a level of depth. I thought I would log in and see what was going on.

The web site

It is not polished and looks rough, but you do what you can with what you have. I also learn something new. The MUD is one of those fruity furry ones. I watched that episode of CSI, I know what that's all about.. dudes dressing up in fluffy costumes and rubbing up against other costumees of indeterminate gender. They called this yiffing or something. But I'm not here to yiff. I am here to learn. Just not about yiffing.

How do I log in? There's no telnet address. I look at some other Skotos games. No telnet addresses for those either. In fact, I followed the links around the Skotos games and Grendel's Revenge stated that you needed to use their ActiveX client in Internet Explorer. No way Jose. Anyway, I create a Skotos account, which means entering personal information like my gender, location and how I found out about their site. Losing interest.

Now I go back to Ironclaw Online. I create a character. There are around 10 screens of choices. Each has numerous drop down boxes where you customise your animal character thing. It is a chore, and I just accepted the "Standard" option for all of them. I get into the game and get a prompt saying something about @help.

The game

So I absentmindedly type "help something or other". I get a bit of text that instructs me to use "@help" instead of "help", and then the help text about "something or other." I am not sure why I need to use "@help", and why when "help" actually works, it matters that I should do it properly. At this point, I have no idea what to do, and have lost interest. I do a who to see if anyone is playing, and am pleased to see they have more than a few players.

Tangentially: Skotos

Back in the day, Skotos were extremely active. They had lots of articles on their web site. They posted interesting ones to the MUD-Dev mailing list. Their games were doing new and interesting things. Now, nothing that I hear at least. As someone who just signed up as a non-paying user, I couldn't help but reflect on how less disruptive creating an account for an Iron Realms game was.

I tried to go back and find some of those Skotos articles, but their article section is partly broken. Their selection of "current articles" were ones that were current four years back or so. Too much work better put off for some other time.

Conclusion

This was very inspirational.

I want my own game to have a character creation where the player can really tune their character. Perhaps even with as many options as Ironclaw Online has. But between the Ironclaw Online character creation process and the Skotos sign up, the time from being interested enough to sign up, to getting in the game is way way too long. I think I would have new users take an approach as straightforward and polished as Midkemia Online has, and have another non-obvious way for existing players to create a more in-depth character.

A tutorial like Midkemia Online is a must.

I would like to think I could choose how commands should be used by players. But this weird @help thing confused me, and makes me more inclined to go with a system that makes sense to the player, not myself.

I wonder if it has been long enough since I last watched that CSI episode that I can watch it again and not remember what happened..
11 Feb, 2010, Idealiad wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Funny you should mention this, I just went through a similar process with Skotos. I was testing browser-based clients and tried theirs, I can't remember for which game. The character creation was straight out of 2003. I don't think I was even as successful as you with their '@help'.
11 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
Idealiad said:
Funny you should mention this, I just went through a similar process with Skotos. I was testing browser-based clients and tried theirs, I can't remember for which game. The character creation was straight out of 2003. I don't think I was even as successful as you with their '@help'.

It is a pity that their games are not more polished and accessible. They have quite a few that are open and available for play, which is a huge investment of time and energy that has been put into them.

Back in the day, when they were more visible and proactive about development, they published a range of interesting and innovative articles:

  • XML: The Core of the Skotos StoryBuilder...

  • The Evocation System

  • The Skotos Proximity System

  • The Skotos Bulk System

  • And then there are all the other ones there, that were I guess commissioned. I'm glad I was reminded of these, as I hope to find the time to spend to wade through them sometime soon. If only Skotos was still on top of things and churning these things out. But their heyday of article publication I think maps pretty well to the heyday of the MUD-Dev mailing list.
    12 Feb, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 4th comment:
    Votes: 0
    donky said:
    I want my own game to have a character creation where the player can really tune their character. Perhaps even with as many options as Ironclaw Online has. But between the Ironclaw Online character creation process and the Skotos sign up, the time from being interested enough to sign up, to getting in the game is way way too long. I think I would have new users take an approach as straightforward and polished as Midkemia Online has, and have another non-obvious way for existing players to create a more in-depth character.

    Reminds me of a problem I've run into with character creation. I provide players with a choice of three creation methods - "quickstart" (drops them straight into the game with a decent character), "concept" (pick a prebuilt and optimised character from a selection of 32 themed choices and then go straight into the game) and "customised" (brings up a menu allowing you to fully design your character).

    Despite a big disclaimer on the creation page recommending selecting "quickstart" or "concept" if it's your first character, and explaining that you can change your setup at a later date (to make it clear it's not a permanent choice you'll regret later), many newbies still pick the "customised" option - and invariably end up creating weak characters. It doesn't matter in the long term (because they can rearrange their character whenever they like), but in the short term it means they get the stuffing kicked out of them in combat, at which point most of them quit in frustration.

    I very much like the idea of players being able to fine-tune their characters, and the option is definitely useful for experienced players creating new characters, but I sometimes wonder if the feature is more of a hindrance than a help when it comes to retaining the interest of new players.
    12 Feb, 2010, Sandi wrote in the 5th comment:
    Votes: 0
    In ROM (and maybe others), you're pretty screwed if you don't customise. I have a door that lets peopel skip school, but you won't realise it's there until you go through school. So, second time players can make a character and go directly to the Guild Hall at level 1. First time players tend to dutifully mess around in the school area as Commoners, some try to stay there as long as possible (despite signs explaining it's harder) because that's what other games have told them to do. I don't know if people don't read or don't believe, but it's like what you quoted from Brattle on TMC. Apparently, people play MUDs so they can shut their brains off for a while and play reflexively. :)
    12 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 6th comment:
    Votes: 0
    KaVir said:
    I very much like the idea of players being able to fine-tune their characters, and the option is definitely useful for experienced players creating new characters, but I sometimes wonder if the feature is more of a hindrance than a help when it comes to retaining the interest of new players.

    The more I think about it, the more I am convinced of it. The web-based MUD experience, and I know I keep mentioning this in my posts, Midkemia in particular has opened my eyes. After doing Midkemia's one page character creation, where everything shown was easily comprehensible and I wasn't left wondering what exactly I was really choosing, it has sunk in how much of a chore character creation usually is. And that's not the worst of it, as you say, the newbies on your MUD who try to customise end up creating weak characters. Correspondingly, when I do a character creation I more often than not do not _really_ understand the options I am choosing. But Midkemia suffers from this as well, when you reach the character creation part of their tutorial - as I described in my confusion about what profession to choose.

    Now I know it have other mechanical solutions, like allowing you to switch professions at a later stage. Or to have awards that allow the player the ability to modify their attributes in some limited way. But these are a band-aid, they do not address the problem. And I see the problem being that a player does not really know what each choice is like, and has to make a general guess at the most appealing one.

    I wonder about the feasibility of having a character creation where the player just chooses a name, a gender and a race. And from that point on, they are not explicitly offered character creation related choices. No profession. No appearance. No background. The opportunities they have, combined with the insight that might be offered to them, allow them to flesh out all of these things.

    If anyone were to look at them, they would be average. If they were to look at themselves, they would see the same. But they might get a hint that they can customise their appearance, tutorial style.

    > look me
    You see an average looking human male.
    HINT: You have not chosen your appearance. To do this use the APPEARANCE command.
    It will allow you to choose how tall you are, what colour your hair, eyes and skin are.
    And of course anything else relevant to your race.
    Perhaps some NPC-driven hints, often enough that the player takes the hint, but not so often that it is just some annoying spam they do not get the gist of. There are probably hints to give than this.

    The aloof lady says: Oh my, aren't you average.  You ought to take a look at yourself.
    Profession is a little tougher. But I think I could live with giving them the basic ability to do the common ones. And either open up others through encountered opportunities, or through character history.

    Character history is something I have thought a lot about, and in previous MUDs I have developed on, we've come up with designs for. But I can't remember or find those right now. So writing this post has given me some ideas. One might be to chain it on to appearance. You might have the ability to choose whether your hands are smooth or calloused. In 3D games, the avatar often has an idle animation. I could perhaps chain this into hints.

    As you stand there, you are suddenly notice how soft your hands are.
    HINT: Occasionally you will be reminded of things that are the result of your past. To
    remember what happened in your past use the HISTORY HANDS command.
    > history feet
    You don't remember anything particular about them at this time.
    > history hands
    … some series of choices by the player to
    Hmm. Not so sure about that. Other possibilities are a series of questions, like some of the roguelikes ask (Amiga Omega comes to mind), or an abstract choose your own adventure. Hmm, it might even be a mini-game that you can choose to play and save the result of, but when you choose to adopt a result, it is permanent. Throw in some randomness to what questions are asked, but in general allow the same paths to be followed. Perhaps only offer a shorter path to begin with, so you get and keep the player's attention and interest.

    ——- BACKGROUND GENERATOR
    Welcome to the background generator. You may type LATER at any time to continue this later. Or QUIT to abandon this background. If you type DONE and have entered enough information, a background will be generated, otherwise the process will be abandoned.

    How old are you now? 36
    What age did you leave home? 18
    Were you made to leave home? yes
    Are you inconsiderate to others? yes
    Would you hit someone to take something they have that you want? yes
    Would you casually kill someone for the slightest reason if you could get away with it? yes
    How many people have you killed? 100
    Were most of them killed so you could rob them? no
    Did you kill them on a whim? no
    Were you ordered to kill them? yes
    OPTOIN: Were you part of an army? no

    ——-

    I am quite liking this. But I think it would need to make clear alternative options, so that the player can cycle through them repeatedly until he knows what are available, and can choose the one that is most appealing.

    Maybe end it like this:

    ——- BACKGROUND GENERATOR CONTINUES
    Did you take any trophies from their bodies? DONE

    You have entered enough information to generate a backstory.

    SETTING OFF
    Growing up in a home with kind and attentive parents, you were cast out and forced to leave the home and the village it was located in. Angry at how your parents interfered with your romantic interest in your sister, you travelled along the dirt road through the forest. Eventually, you ran into a peasant who provided you with some food, drink and coins for your travel, which you exchanged for the positioning of his corpse in the woods nearby. He had a pet dog, but for some reason, it ran away from the kicks you gave it.
    [Hit enter to continue]

    EXPERIENCE IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU DON'T GET WHAT YOU WANT
    You reached a city. You had only heard of these things. Walking along the docks, you ran into two nice chaps who offered you a bed for the night and a warm meal. The next thing you know something hard hits you in the back of the head, and you are on a ship headed to fight a battle in some other country you've never heard of. Getting off the boat, you are given a some light armor and a sword and are made to march into battle against BLAH BLAH BLAH.
    [Hit enter to continue]

    NOW
    The war is over. There are a fair amount of coins in your pocket, a top notch blade on your belt, there's a few interesting items that you have collected over the years in your backpack and you're clad in a good hardy set of armor. Over the years you have made a few friends in various locations throughout the empire, and some outside of it. Having spent most of your life killing on behalf of your king, and taking a personal enjoyment in it, you're pretty handy with a range of weapons. The judgement of your comrades has feel constraining at times, when you would have wanted to leave a few random bodies in your wake. The opportunity is here to make up for lost time. There's killing to be done!
    ——-

    At this point, if the player chooses to adopt it. They would get the equipment. They would get the experience and skills. They would get the contacts, which they could list and locate for quests and other leads of interest. If it is possible to generate something like this, then perhaps its possible to also generate versions which are seeded with some selective viewpoint that the player can generate and share with people.

    Anyway, just some brainstorming. If I weren't knee deep in other aspects of my code base, I'd love to dive right into this. I also wonder if it is easier to just merge in the appearance choices into this, rather than have them separate.
    12 Feb, 2010, Orrin wrote in the 7th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Our character creation offers the choice of selecting options for a custom appearance or a generated one (and you can keep generating new descriptions until you get one you like), but other than that it's just race, gender and name and then you're into the game. Racial choice only determines your starting faction and has no other effect in terms of character ability or potential.
    12 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 8th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Orrin said:
    Our character creation offers the choice of selecting options for a custom appearance or a generated one (and you can keep generating new descriptions until you get one you like), but other than that it's just race, gender and name and then you're into the game. Racial choice only determines your starting faction and has no other effect in terms of character ability or potential.

    That sounds like a pretty reasonable character creation to me. I tried it a month ago or so, and it seemed fine to me, but I don't recall seeing the description generation.
    12 Feb, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 9th comment:
    Votes: 0
    donky said:
    After doing Midkemia's one page character creation, where everything shown was easily comprehensible and I wasn't left wondering what exactly I was really choosing, it has sunk in how much of a chore character creation usually is.

    Well I think that's really a personal preference thing - there are some players who love being able to fully customise their characters, so I don't think having that as an option is the problem. Rather, the problem lies in the fact that players can design weak starting characters which give them a bad playing experience.

    The obvious solution would be to change custom creation so that players can't create poor characters - but that's extremely difficult to do without also restricting the experienced players from creating cleverly optimised characters.

    donky said:
    I wonder about the feasibility of having a character creation where the player just chooses a name, a gender and a race. And from that point on, they are not explicitly offered character creation related choices. No profession. No appearance. No background. The opportunities they have, combined with the insight that might be offered to them, allow them to flesh out all of these things.

    I did originally intended to have a fourth creation option that worked that way (with the creation taking place within a tutorial area), but I never really finalised the idea, and I doubt I'll ever implement it now - it seems rather redundant when everyone can freely reconfigure their setup anyway.

    My "quickstart" creation option only requires you to pick a name - all of your other attributes (stats, skills, equipment, etc) are determined from a template, while cosmetics (including gender and appearance) are selected randomly. Even the "concept" creation only adds one extra step (choose one of the concept templates).

    However the only permanent character choice (other than name) is your class, and that's not something you start with - you have to earn it, something which takes at least a few hours even for an experienced player.

    donky said:
    ——- BACKGROUND GENERATOR
    Welcome to the background generator. You may type LATER at any time to continue this later. Or QUIT to abandon this background. If you type DONE and have entered enough information, a background will be generated, otherwise the process will be abandoned.


    I like the idea of generating backgrounds, but I'm not sure how much use the system would get if players had to wade through question after question to generate their background.

    An idea I've discussed in the past is to use dream miniquests to introduce players to the history of a game world. Perhaps the same sort of idea could be used here - when your character is asleep you can type 'dream' to bring up a list of special background quests, and your actions in those quests then determine your character history. If you want to give players more control, you could give them a "nightmare" command that allows them to immediately drop out of the dream, and whatever they dreamed about didn't actually happen (it was just a nightmare).

    If you want the idea to be more interactive you could tie "flashback" quests to certain items and/or places. Picking up a sword might give you the chance to perform a flashback quest to your first battle, entering your home village for the first time might allow you to flashback to a major event of your childhood, and so on. You could even allow two players who meet for the first time to agree on a time and place for a mutual flashback quest, allowing players to entwine their histories with those of other players.

    In this way the player is able to get into the game straight away, and slowly flesh out their character's past as well as their present through gameplay.
    12 Feb, 2010, Tonitrus wrote in the 10th comment:
    Votes: 0
    KaVir said:
    Well I think that's really a personal preference thing - there are some players who love being able to fully customise their characters, so I don't think having that as an option is the problem. Rather, the problem lies in the fact that players can design weak starting characters which give them a bad playing experience.

    The obvious solution would be to change custom creation so that players can't create poor characters - but that's extremely difficult to do without also restricting the experienced players from creating cleverly optimised characters.

    Maybe characters could be "graded" according to certain tasks and informed about how they'll do in those tasks. Let's say there's a total power level of 100% for using a template or concept. If a character has <= 100% you could list some common activities that they'll be good or bad at.

    Magic: poor
    Fighting: good
    Stealth: decent

    … and so on. Then if they're over 100%, you can give them a proportional version of the same thing, so people will be told what they're best and worst at without being told that they've created the most powerful character concept in the game, while a player who creates a character who sucks at everything will be able to see this clearly.
    12 Feb, 2010, KaVir wrote in the 11th comment:
    Votes: 0
    Tonitrus said:
    Then if they're over 100%, you can give them a proportional version of the same thing, so people will be told what they're best and worst at without being told that they've created the most powerful character concept in the game, while a player who creates a character who sucks at everything will be able to see this clearly.

    That could perhaps be a useful tool for the more experienced players, but telling a newbie their character sucks would be adding insult to injury, particularly if they've no idea how to correct it.
    12 Feb, 2010, Orrin wrote in the 12th comment:
    Votes: 0
    KaVir said:
    Despite a big disclaimer on the creation page recommending selecting "quickstart" or "concept" if it's your first character, and explaining that you can change your setup at a later date (to make it clear it's not a permanent choice you'll regret later), many newbies still pick the "customised" option - and invariably end up creating weak characters. It doesn't matter in the long term (because they can rearrange their character whenever they like), but in the short term it means they get the stuffing kicked out of them in combat, at which point most of them quit in frustration.

    Is it Rom that you always have to choose the custom option or you get a sucky character? I can't remember, but that's probably the kind of syndrome you're suffering from. I can't remember if you have an account system, but if you do you could just disable the custom creation option for the first character on an account, or alternatively take it out altogether and make it something that can be done in game by visiting a trainer mob for example. Experienced players could visit the trainer immediately to customise, but newbies wouldn't necessarily be aware of the option until they had played the game for a while.
    13 Feb, 2010, Idealiad wrote in the 13th comment:
    Votes: 0
    I'm a big fan of GW2's character creation options but I agree that putting the custom option in-game is probably the way to go. Newbies then probably wouldn't be aware of it unless they really went looking, and those kinds of players may be the sort to be careful about their choices anyway.

    I think Orrin mud's description generation system is very good (way better than Skotos's – I think mainly because of the interface). Personally I dislike games where all players write their own descriptions. I don't mind the option but when all players do it you usually end up with bland short descriptions or bland two page monster descriptions 99% of the time. I'd rather the designers just think of a good system and use that as the standard.

    For history I've always liked the idea of allowing players to select 'history chunks' in game as they play, kind of like getting equipment and skills, related in a way to KaVir's flashback idea.
    13 Feb, 2010, donky wrote in the 14th comment:
    Votes: 0
    KaVir said:
    donky said:
    After doing Midkemia's one page character creation, where everything shown was easily comprehensible and I wasn't left wondering what exactly I was really choosing, it has sunk in how much of a chore character creation usually is.

    Well I think that's really a personal preference thing - there are some players who love being able to fully customise their characters, so I don't think having that as an option is the problem. Rather, the problem lies in the fact that players can design weak starting characters which give them a bad playing experience.

    The obvious solution would be to change custom creation so that players can't create poor characters - but that's extremely difficult to do without also restricting the experienced players from creating cleverly optimised characters.


    I am all for players who love to be able to fully customise their characters being able to do so. And I do not believe that because weak characters can be built in a character creation located character builder, this sort of flexibility shouldn't be in the character creation process. What I am leaning towards, is that any option in the login process other than the bare minimum (and I do not include character building in that minimum) is a possible obstacle in keeping the player's attention, or confusing them.

    The ability to build characters in the character creation process is another step between players getting into the game and experiencing it. Sure they do not have to enter it, but while it may make no difference to a player's enjoyment of the game, many might be compelled to just to get the maximum possible perceived gain. And this is giving the benefit of the doubt that the builder is done to the level where they can comprehend the repercussions of their choices, and the way to build to their best advantage.

    KaVir said:
    donky said:
    I wonder about the feasibility of having a character creation where the player just chooses a name, a gender and a race. And from that point on, they are not explicitly offered character creation related choices. No profession. No appearance. No background. The opportunities they have, combined with the insight that might be offered to them, allow them to flesh out all of these things.

    I did originally intended to have a fourth creation option that worked that way (with the creation taking place within a tutorial area), but I never really finalised the idea, and I doubt I'll ever implement it now - it seems rather redundant when everyone can freely reconfigure their setup anyway.

    My "quickstart" creation option only requires you to pick a name - all of your other attributes (stats, skills, equipment, etc) are determined from a template, while cosmetics (including gender and appearance) are selected randomly. Even the "concept" creation only adds one extra step (choose one of the concept templates).

    However the only permanent character choice (other than name) is your class, and that's not something you start with - you have to earn it, something which takes at least a few hours even for an experienced player.


    I like that you have to work towards your classes, it sounds immediately better than Midkemia's SURPRISE! VAGUE CLASS THINGS, CHOOSE ONE.

    KaVir said:
    donky said:
    ——- BACKGROUND GENERATOR
    Welcome to the background generator. You may type LATER at any time to continue this later. Or QUIT to abandon this background. If you type DONE and have entered enough information, a background will be generated, otherwise the process will be abandoned.


    I like the idea of generating backgrounds, but I'm not sure how much use the system would get if players had to wade through question after question to generate their background.


    Well, if done right, there might be some entertainment value in following the possible paths. But putting this sort of thing in the login process, rather than at a point after the player has established a bond with the MUD where they can do it at their leisure, is not the way I would go. In fact, I would probably put it on a web page, and let people do it outside the game. No character creation, no login. No investment. Make tinyurls for histories that people have created. Make it look good. Then at the end point where they have a story and a live built, say "would you like to play this character in our game?" Even allow existing players to adopt a history by typing a key in-game.

    KaVir said:
    An idea I've discussed in the past is to use dream miniquests to introduce players to the history of a game world. Perhaps the same sort of idea could be used here - when your character is asleep you can type 'dream' to bring up a list of special background quests, and your actions in those quests then determine your character history. If you want to give players more control, you could give them a "nightmare" command that allows them to immediately drop out of the dream, and whatever they dreamed about didn't actually happen (it was just a nightmare).

    If you want the idea to be more interactive you could tie "flashback" quests to certain items and/or places. Picking up a sword might give you the chance to perform a flashback quest to your first battle, entering your home village for the first time might allow you to flashback to a major event of your childhood, and so on. You could even allow two players who meet for the first time to agree on a time and place for a mutual flashback quest, allowing players to entwine their histories with those of other players.

    In this way the player is able to get into the game straight away, and slowly flesh out their character's past as well as their present through gameplay.


    I like this. It would allow the player to flesh out their history through action, and you could illustrate some of the consequences of their actions within it so they are aware of the repercussions of believing it is a memory, rather than a dream.
    0.0/14