06 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 1st comment:
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Last night I came across this interesting article on end-game maps in Path of Exile (a Diablo-style ARPG).

http://www.pathofexile.com/news/2012-06-...

The basic premise is that some mobs drop maps, and you can then use these maps to open portals to new randomly-generated areas. This isn't really a new concept, but the description includes some ideas I've not seen before.

In particular, the maps can have random attributes which impact the areas they generate - such as "area has patches of burning ground" or "players cannot regenerate life or mana". This is very consistent with the ARPG style of item generation, and has some interesting side-effects due to sharing the normal item mechanics (such as being able to reroll or tune-up the difficulty of the map).

The article also goes on to discuss previous end-game concepts they played with. Anyone who's played Diablo 3 should appreciate their comments about adding a fourth difficulty level; "we found that players reacted really badly to a sudden brick wall of difficult content that they were unable to progress in" (sound familiar?).

I've recently added a system for generating random mobs, and tied it to my (older) random dungeon code. I also have maps which transport you to an instanced location, although it's for a simple one-on-one fight. And of course I've already got ARPG-style random items. I'm seriously considering combining the concepts, as I've already got all the components I need to create something similar to Path of Exile's proposed map system, and I really need more end-game content.

While I certainly don't see this as a player retention silver bullet, it does look like a good investment of development effort in terms of the amount of entertainment it could provide.
06 Aug, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 2nd comment:
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I think the chase for end content is doomed to fail eventually. Either you keep increasing people items/stats etc, and it is a never ending chase of grinding, or whatever loot you generate can be find elsewhere (provided you allow random items generation). And randomly generated dungeons are well, no more different than another one.
I personaly think the most interesting thing to do in a multiplayer game is to interact with other people, once you managed to explore the whole game (and even before).
06 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 3rd comment:
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Rarva.Riendf said:
I think the chase for end content is doomed to fail eventually. Either you keep increasing people items/stats etc, and it is a never ending chase of grinding, or whatever loot you generate can be find elsewhere (provided you allow random items generation).

You'll never keep players entertained forever. But end-game content keeps people interested after they've reached the top, and is essential for any mud that wishes to build its playerbase.

Rarva.Riendf said:
And randomly generated dungeons are well, no more different than another one.

They definitely are different, very much so. One of the real killers for me with Diablo 3 is that the zones aren't random, there's just a few prebuilt layouts that the game selects from, and it makes the game feel a lot more repetitive compared to Diablo 2.

It's not just me who likes random dungeons, either, it's something my players have pushed for. What I'm now talking about is expanding the concept.

Rarva.Riendf said:
I personaly think the most interesting thing to do in a multiplayer game is to interact with other people, once you managed to explore the whole game (and even before).

Interact doing what, though? You can't expect the players to just hang out all day and chat with each other. You need to offer them content. No content, no players.
06 Aug, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 4th comment:
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Quote
Interact doing what, though? You can't expect the players to just hang out all day and chat with each other. You need to offer them content. No content, no players.

Basically everything that can lead to players fighting each other. PK, Clan, quest for artifacts, Arena, and Immortals run quests. All that need a good playerbase though.
06 Aug, 2012, Ssolvarain wrote in the 5th comment:
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One of the games I'm playing now, Dragon Quest IX, has maps that work a lot like what you described. The monsters, area, and end-boss are all auto-generated, and the difficulty scales off the player's level.

Project Bob is arguably one of the most content-filled MUDs out there, even if most of it is completely automated. Their auto-generated dungeons are definitely something to take a peek at if you're wanting to experiment with the idea.
06 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 6th comment:
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Rarva.Riendf said:
Basically everything that can lead to players fighting each other. PK, Clan, quest for artifacts, Arena, and Immortals run quests. All that need a good playerbase though.

Yup, and you're not going to build up a good playerbase unless you've got enough content to retain players - and long-term retention requires end-game content.

Ssolvarain said:
Project Bob is arguably one of the most content-filled MUDs out there, even if most of it is completely automated. Their auto-generated dungeons are definitely something to take a peek at if you're wanting to experiment with the idea.

I've heard of it, but never played it, I was always put off by the name (which is a silly reason, but there you go). Thanks for the suggestion though, I'll check it out.
06 Aug, 2012, Runter wrote in the 7th comment:
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This sounds like exactly what I've been working on. I'm not familiar with the game you mentioned, but what I'm doing is making it so that normal content has basic parameters for the random dungeon. Which people can repeat at basically no cost, but allowing players to find/buy/create tokens with a stat system similar to items to get "better" dungeons. I've opted not to modify dungeons to be harder through the rolls. At least not through punitive stats. I'm doing stuff like +area size, +npc density, +chance of event encounter, +rare npc chance, etc. Those are all things that aren't binary on or off, either. I'm still designing the system, so it's very timely that you brought this up.
06 Aug, 2012, Hades_Kane wrote in the 8th comment:
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KaVir said:
Yup, and you're not going to build up a good playerbase unless you've got enough content to retain players - and long-term retention requires end-game content.


I second this.

Having been capped at 50 for a while without much advancement possible beyond skill training possible, no matter how much PK, RP, or other forms of entertainment present, many people would take off within 6 months of maxing a few characters without any additional content.
07 Aug, 2012, Idealiad wrote in the 9th comment:
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I've always liked this kind of idea, but in the past just thought of applying broad 'shifts' to an area (kind of like how you spawn night-only mobs in GW2 and stuff like that). My idea was that you could create all sorts of thematic shifts. They'd act like PG area-wide quests in a sense, so you have the basic unchanging area framework that you put new clothes on.

In any case applying changes at a finer granularity like what you're talking about sounds cool too.
07 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 10th comment:
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07 Aug, 2012, arholly wrote in the 11th comment:
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It's definitely interesting and a pretty nifty idea.
07 Aug, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 12th comment:
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Looking at some links for random dungeon generaiton, it seems like there are a lot of already good looking one.
It is just a matter of adapting the code to how you store the data from then.
I may implement one for fun, and release it for Rom/merc, like I adapted the maze snippet.

this one looks nice:
http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/
07 Aug, 2012, Rarva.Riendf wrote in the 13th comment:
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This one as well, explaining how to generate nice one as well it seems :
http://www.saschawillems.de/?page_id=395
08 Aug, 2012, Kline wrote in the 14th comment:
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Reading over this got me thinking, has anyone created, or attempted to create, a game designed more like interactive fiction? Many games (Mass Effect is the most recent that comes to mind) let you build your character, play through a story, and then carry it forward into the next sequel as the story continues. Would this be a better approach to end-game content, or is the amount of depth and creativity required simply too massive for games that are usually owned and developed by an individual or small handful of people? MMORPGs do this in a way with constant expansion packs and a large overarching story for each one, but don't force you to play through it or even acknowledge it.

I think the random maps would be a nice additional of side content to be present throughout the game, not just a special treat for those sitting around level capped. Perhaps such a story / sequel concept would fit better in a strict / "highly encouraged" RP game just to ensure player participation, but I think it would be interesting to play through such a system instead of the same content presented in a different fashion on most games (random zones, boost level cap, more difficult enemies, etc – same ideas, just differing in how they are presented).
08 Aug, 2012, arholly wrote in the 15th comment:
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I guess I have to ask why limit it to end-game content like Kline. I think you could gear it more towards higher-level content, especially if you are a fantasy world with things like "planes" or "dimensions" (or insert appropriate word here). Then you could make the maps portals to other (mini-)dimensions for players to explore.
08 Aug, 2012, Hades_Kane wrote in the 16th comment:
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arholly said:
I guess I have to ask why limit it to end-game content like Kline. I think you could gear it more towards higher-level content, especially if you are a fantasy world with things like "planes" or "dimensions" (or insert appropriate word here). Then you could make the maps portals to other (mini-)dimensions for players to explore.


We are based on the Final Fantasy series, and our world is an amalgamation of areas from the different games (and Chrono Trigger/Cross), and one end-game idea I had was after we have the main world (and associated underworld and moon) complete (main areas plus plenty of filler areas added as well), then start working on making separate worlds from the various "dimensions" that more or less existed as a copy of a particular game's world, ie: we might have one world that is completely based on FF6, or another that is the complete FF7 world, etc. At "max" level, the players would then gain access to these individual worlds to explore, perhaps even with a completely separate level of advancement unique and isolated to that world.

I don't know that we'll go this route, but it has been an idea that's been floated around anyhow. My main concern would be, that unless we had a massive playerbase, I wouldn't like creating what could end up being a significant separation of the players by dividing them among separate worlds later on.
08 Aug, 2012, Alathon wrote in the 17th comment:
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I guess it depends on whether you want to appease current end-game players, or get more new players. If you have newly logged in players dropping off in the beginning of the game because theres not fun enough / diverse enough content, I'd say restricting a cool feature to the higher levels is detrimental to the MUD. If, OTOH, your problem is that people cap out and then leave because theres nothing to do, then its understandable to keep it aimed at pleasing those players.

Though, with a feature as dynamic in nature as random content generation, I don't see a reason not to apply it across all ranges, even if most of the benefit ends up being at the top.
08 Aug, 2012, KaVir wrote in the 18th comment:
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Rarva.Riendf said:
Looking at some links for random dungeon generaiton, it seems like there are a lot of already good looking one.

Yeah there are various solutions. Mine was inspired by The Sorcerer's Cave, which allows the dungeons to be generated during exploration (rather than in advance), and has the added benefit of being fairly accessable to blind players (who represent around 20-25% of my active players).

arholly said:
I guess I have to ask why limit it to end-game content like Kline.

There's no need to limit it to end-game content. But within the context of this thread, I'm primarily interested in how it can be used to enhance the end-game experience, because that's what my mud is lacking the most.
08 Aug, 2012, Alathon wrote in the 19th comment:
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KaVir said:
In particular, the maps can have random attributes which impact the areas they generate - such as "area has patches of burning ground" or "players cannot regenerate life or mana". This is very consistent with the ARPG style of item generation, and has some interesting side-effects due to sharing the normal item mechanics (such as being able to reroll or tune-up the difficulty of the map).


I think one thing not typically given enough importance, is removing power from players. Players at the top end of a game will often have a very, very solid sense of what their character can do, how it works well with others, how
to defeat certain mechanics and so on. This removes risk and makes things feel very grindy, often. Part of what is fun for many players, is the journey to gain that comfort zone and the know-how in the first place; this is something high-end players are essentially 'robbed of'. Until you turn things upside down, and alter
the mechanics. Note that I specifically don't mean just reducing power (Such as cutting the effeciency of skills in half, or reducing damage output by 20%), which can make things more challenging but are otherwise things which you counter simply by virtue of gear, numbers or similar. Although not so much in GWII, I imagine.

Now there are less-creative ways to change the board (Such as the raiding zone Uqua in EverQuest, which floored everyones attributes until you got items off of mobs to counteract the aura; or Inferno in D3, which turned the game into
hit n' run), and there are more creative ways to do so (Such as nullifying an essential class mechanic, or having mobs switch targets frequently, or requiring the use of traps, logic and player cunning to kill something that skills won't touch).

Here are some things I've found interesting and fun in the past, in no particular order, and by no means an exhaustive list:
  • Sensory deprivation (Limiting line of sight, removing perception-related abilities)

  • Locking classes of abilities (Only one healing spell per 60 seconds, no fire spells, etc)

  • Impending doom (Being time-limited, or being increasingly slowed in movement speed with something chasing you)

  • Being forced to attack friends (Forcing your friends to disable you, until you're not confused)

  • Fights that involve solving a puzzle while you fight (By moving things, or responding with attacks based on a riddle)

  • Up is down, down is up - Reversing or altering basic components of the game (Healing spells damage, or fire acts as ice, or walking directions are reversed)


  • I can think of ways to adopt all of the above to this map concept, both in the case of 'boss fights', or just general dungeon qualities/attributes. The point being, go nuts trying to
    yank your players out of their comfort zone, and they'll probably both love and hate you for it. It also adds a new tier of know-how, to decipher and know how to work within the
    constraint of these unique alterations to the game.
    0.0/19