The statement I originally made, which he objected to (thus spawning this line of discussion), was "I'd also like to add that I strongly dislike hidden numbers". Thus the appropriate analogy would be the values of the cards, and not the odds.

Oh yeah? Well maybe people should read the thread before opening their mouths. What do you think about THAT? =)

I kind of swing toward Quix on this, in creation numbers should be hidden or obfuscated because at that point you have no real idea on of the impact of them on your character. (Assuming custom base you have never played before) I think things like stat re-rolls in creation and the like are bad, for these very reasons.

As for the rest of creation, my personal view is to have things short and sweet, Username, Password and enter the game, then have the player select features available to them via some interactive area or quests, i feel that this type of system helps to give players much more information about the possibilities when compared to the nanny type system of a Diku.

I'm wondering how widespread this feature has become since I posted "I killed the Nanny!". At the time, no one seemed to appreciate it. :sad:

What about when you've played the game before, and you actually understand what the numbers mean?

I don't think it makes much of a difference, the point of creation should be to give new players a basic understanding of the mechanics of the game and its whole emphasis should be on new players to the game, not existing ones. Giving an existing player a bypass to the tutorial aspect of creation might be a fair enough thing to do.

I personally would rather be able to read all the helps, boards and even look around before deciding to even create an account.
It's been my experience that many muds will pester you about the propriety, length and/or spelling of your name, and annoy you with providing a properly secure password.
I much prefer a guest system like that present on some MOOs and Mushes.

Presumably, new players are not the only ones creating characters. I think you're conflating a few issues: on the one hand there is the learning period for new players, and on the other, the question of whether or not these numbers are helpful to people who know how to use them. I think that several people by now have said that it's not useful to bombard a new player with numbers they don't understand, but several people have also said that by the time you start caring, especially when you're competing, the numbers matter an awful lot.

I don't think you need to know numbers to be competitive. As KaVir has said, they do change over the life of a game, and thus knowing that a copper short sword is "1d6" and an iron one is "1d6+1" does you little good if a dev introduces a bronze short sword that you don't know the stats for (because YOU don't have one), or they change the copper sword to be 1d6-1.

It's even more likely that they'll change the values of the things you're fighting. Ok, so today, you "know" that kobolds have 60hp, and so with your "Sword of 1d6", it will take from 10 to 60 hits to kill them (no other modifiers). If you had the "Sword of 1d6+1", you now know that pesky kobold will die in 9 to 30 hits. Tomorrow, the devs change the kobolds to have 80hp, or perhaps they give them better armour so now instead of hitting 80% of the time, you only hit 70% of the time. The numbers you see haven't changed, you're still wielding the "Sword of 1d6", but now they don't die as fast.

As for the poker game… the "numbers" on the cards aren't always numbers. They are, in fact, labels. Depending on the game, their value may change. If I deal a hand and declare 3's wild, suddenly that "4" isn't stronger any more. The same cards get used for other games where the rules about which trumps which are often only vaguely related to the values themselves. Sure, you can try to claim that's changing the rules… but so is an admin re-balancing the weapon stats.

But the point is that if those stats are made visible, you can easily see whenever part of your setup has changed - and when you pick up one of those new bronze shortswords you'll immediately be able to compare it to your current weapon.

If you hide those numbers, it makes it all the more difficult to work out what has changed, and therefore much more difficult to remain competitive.

Supposing they change your copper shortsword from d6 damage to d6-1 damage. That's only 1 damage less, and can be very difficult to spot. But supposing at the same time they change your copper ring from +1 damage to +2 damage. Your damage output is now exactly the same as before - you won't see any difference.

To remain competitive you would need to run hundreds of tests with different pieces of equipment. And you couldn't just do it once - you'd need to do it every time new items were introduced or old ones changed.



36 of the 52 cards have numbers printed on them, and even the others have values in numeric terms. Remember, even in muds it may be desirable to have items with low or even negative stats.

Try placing a unique symbol on each of 52 cards and then play blackjack with them. Assign each of those symbols a specific suit/value combination, but only allow the house to know what those symbols represent. Allow the house to change what they represent every few games. Now see how competitive the game feels.

Fair enough. I'm sure we (me, KaVir, and anyone else that's into this deeply) could design a game that was competitive without numbers. But, what we're saying for our experience is, it's easier to use numbers and the players prefer them.

Forgive me, but this is much like "introduction" systems. No, you don't really know a strangers name in RL. But, you don't need emoticons in RL, either. I see the character's name as a token for all the details I'd notice when I meet a stranger. The presence of an intro systems tells me there are players on the game that can't RP (Else, why would it be needed? I certainly know better than to address a stranger by name, if you can't handle that, your concept of RP is pretty shaky), so I stay far away.

Those seeking "immersion" generally prefer to be at the mercy of the game, much like going to a movie. They feel it's "real" to be controlled by outside things they don't understand. Most people become serious about competition because they are competitive (in the "they have a chance of winning" sense of the word). Reality, for them, is being able to win. What they hate in RL, is when someone wins by getting lucky, rather than by skill or strategy. In RL, it happens. In a game, we can prevent it.

(not sure how much sense I just made, or if it adds anything, but there you go…)

I agree on the introduction systems, although a tangent, I find that I can easily enough know that my character hasn't met X's character yet and would refer to him/her as such.

Of course, I also am able to distinguish between OOC and IC talk and don't get miffed if someone says 'hey my car broke down, this sucks' and doesn't use 'osay' but uses 'say'. I can pretty quickly just realize 'hey he's talking IRL' and not go 'emote shakes his head in confusion at the strange words.' or some such heh.

I find in the line of muds i'm used to, people really do prefer numbers. I'd still like to come up with a system that allowed people to 'roll' stats, but maybe it's more like 'you have 65 stat points, 5 stats, allot as you will' and have maximums of course. (we have 5 stats, 13 ave etc. Although, been wanting to add a charisma stat…)

It seems to me, actually, that the argument about things' stats changing is actually an argument for numbers, rather than against…! After all, the argument was made that you don't need numbers because you can measure things empirically, e.g. it takes me 4 swipes and Bob 8 swipes to kill the kobold. If the numbers change without you knowing it, all of these measurements will be thrown off, and you're back to square 1.

I think that at a very minimum players and their characters should be able to fairly accurately compare things, even if they don't get some item statistics. A trained warrior – not to mention the heroes we are talking about – should be able to tell fairly easily a good sword from a bad one, or solid armor versus fragile. Numbers are merely a proxy to make this process faster, rather than having to compare a new-found item against every one you currently have.

Sandi, you make an interesting point about intro systems. I'd never thought of it that way before… The issue of a "token" for all the details you'd notice is a very good one; what's always bothered me with all intro systems is that it is hard to make such a token. The one thing I think an intro system does allow is deliberate misinformation: if I can introduce myself as Fred, where my name is actually Bob, it can be useful for various reasons (usually of an evil nature). Of course, the other person should be able to tell me apart from other Fred's immediately, etc. Neither here nor there, though.



By the way, I ran some tests with the 30 times 1d12 thing. With 500 samples, each rolling 1d12 30 times, the average is 194.3, the standard deviation 18.2, the median 194, and the mode 189. The frequency chart looks almost like a normal curve, but with frequencies of 4 all the way out at 160 and 232. So I rest my case on this one: the rolls certainly don't average out in the end. (The standard deviation alone should show that.)

Most of the arguments in favor of numbers seem to boil down to a need to somehow "know" exactly to what extend every single thing in your environment affects your overall performance. Even if I accept that as a realistic goal (I don't), it's not something you'd expect a level 1 character to be able to do.

If you know a little bit about swords, you can probably pick up a sword and swing it a few times to get a general feel for it. If it's dramatically different in quality (or style) than your current weapon, you'd be able to tell that. Unless you're a master swordsman, there's no way you're going to be able to discern the difference between two bronze swords, one of which gets a "+1 damage" because the copper/tin ratio is slightly on the copper side, the other gets a "+1 accuracy" because it's slightly more on the tin side. No way, unless you actually USE them both for some period of time.

Which brings us to the other reason people like numbers. Impatience. The second strongest argument for numbers seems to be based on people not wanting to empirically measure the difference between weapons for themselves. Sure, I could go on a killing spree and see which sword works better against goblins, but I'd rather have it spelled out for me because I'm in too much of a hurry. That is a valid point, and I know lots of people who rip through game content without bothering to even know what they're doing, just to get to the "end game".

One other thing that just occured to me. If you use numbers, you miss out on role play opportunities. Assuming that you wrote a vendor system that worked more like actual vendors (as opposed to an online catalog), the merchant could show you several swords in the price range and level range you're looking at, and he could choose to try and push one over another based on supply/demand, or just because he has a crappy one he can't sell and think you're a rube. If you're a level 1 nooblet, odds are good you'd believe him since your ability to compare/identify things isn't all that great yet. If you're a high level fighter, you'd probably know he was lying as soon as you touched it.

In that scenario, seeing the numbers would make such a thing impossible. If you were to "lie" about it, most players would report the discrepency as a bug, rather than seeing their failure to identify the item as the problem.

It boils down to a need for players to be able to play competitive games in a competitive way. If you don't know what equipment does, your strategic and tactical options are greatly reduced.


If you can't discern the difference between two weapons, then the chances are you won't gain any benefit from one over the other. If you want to simulate that, the better quality weapon shouldn't give its +1 bonus to someone who isn't a master swordsman (that would also solve the roleplaying example you cited later, although I don't personally think roleplaying need be an important factor in a competitive mud).


The reason people dislike grinding isn't because they're impatient, but because repeatedly performing the same activity is extremely boring and mindlessly repetitive. Being forced to run tests on your equipment every time the mud changes would seriously detract from the appeal of the mud.

Fully agreed – I don't consider it to be a bad kind of impatience to not want to do tedious tasks.


I have no objection to having people's ability to tell one sword from the other be tied to various skills, although I'm not sure this is necessarily that different from KaVir's suggestion of simply not giving the bonus to people who aren't good enough to obtain it. (Actually, I kind of prefer the idea of not giving a bonus to anybody who doesn't know how to manipulate the weapon to its strengths.)

It doesn't need to be all or nothing - you could scale the bonuses based on the skill/level of the character. It's not a bad way of avoiding twinking, either, as the newbie warrior should gain around the same benefit from a vorpal blade as he would from a sub-issue shortsword. The only difference is he wouldn't need to keep looking for a better sword as he gained levels, because the vorpal blade would always be cutting-edge (no pun intended) for his current level.

I think you just inspired a new thread.

On topic here, though, what about newbie EQ? Do you give them a bag of goodies, or make them earn it?

In my character creation system? I give newbies a full set of gear. Each of the starting concepts comes with a predefined set of equipment based on its theme and abilities (eg a samurai starts with appropriately named weapons and armour). If the player chooses a custom-built character then they'll instead be allocated equipment and weapons based on the stats, skills and talents they selected (eg if you've chosen Small Axe Mastery and Ambidextrous, you'll begin with a pair of handaxes, and then be equipped with a selection of armour suited to your Brawn stat).

That actually reminds me of one of the minor gripes I have with my car. My car has one of those automatic transmissions with the option to manually shift (no clutch). I picked that option because I was born just a year too late to learn sticks, and then never bothered to later. Well, they system is all computer-controlled (as all cars are these days), and it adjusts the shift points based on how you drive. So, step on the gas consistently at the green light, and your car starts learning to shift later so you get more pickup. Cruise your way around, and you'll shift sooner to save mileage.

Ok, now there's one more feature to mention before I get to the point. The car won't up-shift if you have it in "manual" mode, you have to do it. Lots of warnings all over the place here, because you can (of course) damage your engine from running it in the red too long. However, it WILL downshift for you. I guess they figured it was more dangerous to let the car stall out because you forgot to shift. There are no settings to disable this (without hacking the car's computer).

Now, here's the point. Once you've driven the car long enough for it to adapt the shift points to your style of driving, it really DOES do a good job of shifting right when you'd normally shift. If you have it in "manual" mode, it will downshift right about the time YOU reach to downshift. As you might guess, that results in fairly frequent double-shifting and your engine doesn't really LIKE going from 3rd @ 600RPM to 1st @ 5000RPM very often. Annoying. Not something you can tell by getting into the car and taking it for a few test drives.

That's my point. Why should equipment differences be things you can notice the instant you glance at them? If you give me a new keyboard that's similar to the one I'm using now, I may not realize it's better until I notice that I'm not making as many typos over the course of a week, or that I can type for 6 hours without wrist pain that might have shown up in 3 hours on the old keyboard. Maybe the keyboard is slightly taller and I adjusted my chair a bit, and so THAT is what reduced the pain, not the keyboard at all.

I don't think it makes sense to always have difference leap out at you, as if every item in your medieval showcase has a UPC sticker that yields up concise statistics for you to peruse. Sure, a +5 holy avenger with mithril edging and runes all along the blade is obviously better than a rusty orc scimitar, but you can kindof guess that from the description. Which is better? A rusty orc scimitar, or a rusty goblin cleaver? Well, I dunno. Neither do you. Maybe they're statistically the same, and you'd prefer the one you have more skill with (axe vs. sword)? Maybe the sword is faster? The cleaver looks heavier, maybe it does more damage? You probably wouldn't know unless you actually took them out back and hacked at tree stumps for a while.

I don't see that as a bad thing. If the description doesn't give you a hint, and you can't tell by eyeballing them with your compare/identify/whatever skill, then you probably shouldn't know unless you give yourself a chance to get used to using them.

In one of the AD&D campaigns I played, the DM gave one of the guys a magical sword. He didn't say it was magical, and he said it felt like a very nicely crafted longsword, perhaps slightly better than the one he was using now. Weeks later, the mage happend to cast detect magic in proximity and we noticed that it glowed. MONTHS later, we finally found out it did double damage to demons, as we finally encountered several and the guy with the sword had a MUCH easier time killing them than the rest of us.

As for newbie gear, we give our players a next to nothing. They get a club (which is useable by any class), a little hand-drawn ASCII map scroll of the starter area, a lantern (no light at night, nothing to see here), a loaf of bread and a water skin (you can starve, and no food/water means no health/movement regen). They are encouraged to read descriptions and consider before engaging anything. Of course, most don't and get killed by villagers right outside the starting inn. :)