08 Dec, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 1st comment:
Votes: 0
I'm sure this varies from site to site, but does anyone know if there's a legal/policy requirement that a MUD be placed on listing sites (such as here, TMC, TMS, etc) under the exact branch that it is derived from? More specifically, can a Diku/Merc/Godwars codebase be listed as just Diku/Merc? The reason I ask this is that I run such a MUD, but it has undergone 8 years of extensive modification, leaving 95-99% of the Godwars portion of the base (even the Merc portion, as well) either removed or rewritten; yet, by listing it as Godwars, the majority of players who login quit immediately because they were looking for a God Wars MUD, which my MUD is not. Please, don't confuse this with a license question, as I do follow all license requirements and will continue to do so. I just want to know if there are requirements for the listing here, or anywhere else that anyone might know of. If there are, should there be? I'd be particularly interested in KaVir's response/opinion on this matter.
08 Dec, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 2nd comment:
Votes: 0
Lyanic said:
I'm sure this varies from site to site, but does anyone know if there's a legal/policy requirement that a MUD be placed on listing sites (such as here, TMC, TMS, etc) under the exact branch that it is derived from?

There's no legal requirement, but most listing sites have a policy about providing accurate information.

Lyanic said:
More specifically, can a Diku/Merc/Godwars codebase be listed as just Diku/Merc?

You can list it as anything you like, but if it's a GodWars and you list it on TMC as a Merc, it'll fail its audit and you'll be asked to change it. In fact I'll probably be the one auditing it, as GW muds usually get passed to me.

Lyanic said:
The reason I ask this is that I run such a MUD, but it has undergone 8 years of extensive modification,

The problem is many other mud owners say the exact same thing, so where do you draw the line? Unless the listing sites start judging muds on an individual basis (which opens a big can of worms) you've only really got two choices - either you let people put anything they like on their listings (greatly weakening the value of searches) or you enforce the accuracy based on non-subjective data.

Fortunately TMC does also provide a text box beside the codebase field where you can write a comment. Unfortunately many muds use it to describe how they're "99.9% modified", so you still won't stand out. But on the plus side, if people could put anything they liked in the codebase field, you'd still have the same problem, as most muds would just list themselves as "custom".

Another option would be to release your source code, and if enough other people start using it you might be able to convince Icculus to add a new codebase entry for you.

Lyanic said:
by listing it as Godwars, the majority of players who login quit immediately because they were looking for a God Wars MUD, which my MUD is not

The majority of players quit immediately anyway, for any number of reasons. Are you sure it's because they're looking for a GW mud? And do you think it'll be any better if you list yourself as Merc and people log on looking for a Merc mud?
08 Dec, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 3rd comment:
Votes: 0
KaVir said:
Lyanic said:
The reason I ask this is that I run such a MUD, but it has undergone 8 years of extensive modification,

The problem is many other mud owners say the exact same thing, so where do you draw the line? Unless the listing sites start judging muds on an individual basis (which opens a big can of worms) you've only really got two choices - either you let people put anything they like on their listings (greatly weakening the value of searches) or you enforce the accuracy based on non-subjective data.

Fortunately TMC does also provide a text box beside the codebase field where you can write a comment. Unfortunately many muds use it to describe how they're "99.9% modified", so you still won't stand out. But on the plus side, if people could put anything they liked in the codebase field, you'd still have the same problem, as most muds would just list themselves as "custom".

Another option would be to release your source code, and if enough other people start using it you might be able to convince Icculus to add a new codebase entry for you.

Unfortunately, I'm aware of this. The fact that most MUD admins label their games as 99.9% custom (despite it not being true), is the very reason I was careful about saying 95-99% differentiated from God Wars (even though it is actually an understatement in my case). I'd hope that based on my reputation over the years, people would be more inclined to take my word for it. I can certainly say that anyone who has played my game can tell you it's not God Wars. As for the codebase - I've labeled it internally as a separate codebase for years (currently Planar 2.3.1). I just don't want to release it to the public - at least not yet.


KaVir said:
Lyanic said:
by listing it as Godwars, the majority of players who login quit immediately because they were looking for a God Wars MUD, which my MUD is not

The majority of players quit immediately anyway, for any number of reasons. Are you sure it's because they're looking for a GW mud? And do you think it'll be any better if you list yourself as Merc and people log on looking for a Merc mud?

I know that the majority of players quit immediately. However, I get at least one person per day who specifically says something along the lines of "I thought this was supposed to be a God Wars MUD!!", followed by dropping link (they don't like using the 'quit' command for some reason). And you may have a point about the Merc players looking for a "Merc" game, but I'm sure you're well aware that the typical God Wars player is a special breed. The point is, I think I'd have an easier time selling my game to Merc players looking for a "Merc" game, than God Wars players looking for a "God Wars" game - if that makes any sense.

KaVir said:
Lyanic said:
More specifically, can a Diku/Merc/Godwars codebase be listed as just Diku/Merc?

You can list it as anything you like, but if it's a GodWars and you list it on TMC as a Merc, it'll fail its audit and you'll be asked to change it. In fact I'll probably be the one auditing it, as GW muds usually get passed to me.

That's why I wanted your opinion on the matter. I was hoping you'd cover how you would handle such an audit case. You didn't explicitly state a yes/no answer of acceptability along the lines that I was looking for, but I would infer from the rest of your post that your opinion is "follow the site rules even if what you say is true, because making an exception for one person leads to making exceptions for everyone". Would I be correct in that inference? If so, it is definitely an understandable stance. Either way, thanks for taking the time to respond.
08 Dec, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 4th comment:
Votes: 0
Lyanic said:
The fact that most MUD admins label their games as 99.9% custom (despite it not being true), is the very reason I was careful about saying 95-99% differentiated from God Wars (even though it is actually an understatement in my case). I'd hope that based on my reputation over the years, people would be more inclined to take my word for it.

It's not about taking your word for it - it's about impartial auditing. Whatever criteria are used for one mud should be equally applied to all, with as little preference or bias as possible.

Lyanic said:
That's why I wanted your opinion on the matter. I was hoping you'd cover how you would handle such an audit case.

I would see that your mud was based on GodWars, but that you'd set your codebase field to Merc, and would flag it as a minor issue that needed to be corrected - as per the TMC policy.
08 Dec, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 5th comment:
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KaVir said:
Stuff…

You respond, but not to the part that warranted response. :-p
08 Dec, 2009, KaVir wrote in the 6th comment:
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The middle paragraph? Yes, I know what the typical GodWars player is like (and they don't generally like my mud either). But I doubt that changing the codebase in your listing would help you sell the mud, you'd probably still get people quitting after saying things like "I thought this was supposed to be a Merc MUD!!"
08 Dec, 2009, Lyanic wrote in the 7th comment:
Votes: 0
Yeah, I was 90% sure I knew what the response to my question was going to be before I posted this. That's why I talked myself out of making this post for an entire year. Still, since it's out in the open - I'd at least like to get Mudbytes' policy concerning this, since I have TMC's from KaVir.

Thanks again for the opinion/information, KaVir. And I was just messing with you on that last post.
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