Changing cosmetics isn't much of a challenge, but in order to actually customize anything to where it isn't just a stock game with different colors, messaging, and maybe some different races or classes, it takes a lot of time, a lot of dedication, a lot of trial and error, and a lot of hard work.

The reason, I'd say, there are so many thrown together, basically stock games out there is that it doesn't seem like there are nearly as many people who are willing to put real work into their game as there are people content to just throw some snippets in and change some colors around for the sake of being able to "have their own MUD".

Speaking from personal experience, I was a builder on ROM based games for years before even stepping into the code. I started out changing cosmetics, re-doing the scoresheet, and installing some basic snippets. Much of the first year of me working on the codebase was a matter of learning what does what, where goes where, and learning to understand the basics of the programming language. About two years later, I finally feel capable enough to be comfortable being the primary person responsible for bug fixes and code changes/additions.

If you are serious about running your own game, you don't have an easy road ahead of you if you want something unique, fun, and resembling the theme you were talking about running with.

If you don't feel capable or dedicated enough to take a couple of years learning your codebase by trial and error, I'd have a few suggestions for you:

1) Find a game close to what you are wanting to do and see if you can contribute there.

2) Figure out what exactly it is you can contribute to a project like this that would make it worth while for a coder to link up with you. There are tons of people who want to "run" or "own" their own game, but really have nothing to contribute, that are looking for coders. If you can provide all of the funding for a server, are a good and dedicated builder, have great people skills, and are more than willing to share the idea and decision making with a coder, then those things will go a long way. Unfortunately, most of the people that seem to be 'starting a new MUD' and post for coders are shotty builders at best, want to call all of the shots, and aren't very good with dealing with players. People like that very rarely contribute anything outside of "I am the owner, you listen to me!"

3) Find a coder working on the codebase you would like to learn how to code on and apprentice under them for a year or so, and when you feel like you are a capable coder, have contributed enough to the MUD they were working on or otherwise fulfilled any agreements or obligations, then begin working on your own game.

Regardless of what route you decide to take, you have a long road ahead of you, and patience is key.

Either way, good luck.

I'd like to emphasize this point. Coders, especially good coders, have their own stuff to do, in addition to their IRL job (or homework or whatever). There is little reason to work for somebody else who wants to own the result and make all the decisions. To interest a coder worth your time, you need to convince him/her that there is true creative worth in the project (what makes it different from all the other newbie MUDs out there?) and that the coder can have a personal stake in the project. Many new MUDs are like startups ("I have a great company, all I need is an idea and somebody to develop it") – "I have a great MUD, all I need is somebody to do all the hard work for me".

Along these lines, here is an interesting thread about the difficulties of running a MUD. It's worth a read when trying to very objectively measure the pros and cons of the rather difficult task. As he says in the post it is not meant to discourage people, it's just meant to be pragmatic and realistic so that people don't get false impressions of what the workload is like to succeed.

Unfortunately, EmpireMUD is a basically extinct codebase, and runs completely differently from other MUD codebases.

It would be nearly impossible to find someone to apprentice under.

Whoa whoa whoa there mister Kane. This is not a "post for coders" by any means. I'm just saying that it is tougher than I had anticipated. But that isn't stopping me from doing my homework on coding. I also think it's bad form to just blurt out "hey give me coders" and not have any encentives(sp) for them should they see fit to assist me. While I appreciate any help, I'm learning on my own and I am devoted to that which I made in order to make it better. So go ahead and blast me or flame me or whatever for my lack of etiquette on the matter, this is my first mud and I'm trying my best - That's all I can do. So, if there is a problem or something, deal. I don't have time to listen to negative CRAP all day, I'm looking for solutions.

I'm looking for something that will aid my research, not pack up and just go because someone tells me to. So the next time you have something polite to say, I'll be sure to be all ears. But as I understand, that may be an issue for you (I remember Samson naming you or people like you for being one of the reasons he quit his position) but that crap won't work on me. After all, there are few people who aren't in things for personal gain. I'd like to acknowledge my first player for volunteering her time by adding a website and actually helping me. I also never said anything about just "using" a coder to get what I want and not taking the time or consideration for his or her real life distractions. Anyone who helps me will be acknowledged and rewarded. What kind of selfish bastard are you trying to make me out to be here?

I apologize to everyone and it is with much regret and mourning that I will continue my project. Thank you for your sentiments kane, I'm sure I'll need all the luck I can get.

FWIW I think you completely misread what he said. :sad: Nobody blasted or flamed you, and certainly nobody told you that you aren't following etiquette. I think that you are reacting a wee bit over-defensively here.

Being a CircleMUD derivative, EmpireMUD is likely to still be using the ass-backward binary pfile. Basically a monolithic file that grows as more players join the game. Next to impossible to expand beyond what comes with the game stock, and very easily corrupted with one wrong move - wiping out the entire pbase instead of just one person.

If you're going to do any truly serious work with this codebase I'd strongly suggest your first priority be to convert the pfile monolith into separate text files like most other MUD engines. Not only is that less likely to wipe everyone out in one stroke, you can expand on things easily and edit pfiles by hand if need be.

Unfortunately, as Zenn already said, this codebase is more or less extinct so finding people who are familiar with its workings is going to be tough. Circle coders would be a good place to start looking. They'll have a better chance of figuring things out that coders from the Merc branches.

Yeah, I'd really like to see EmpireMUD smaugified. It's a great codebase but dosen't have the capabilities for expansion that Smaug does.

Heh. From the sound of things it might be easier to Empire-ify a Smaug codebase. The wilderness things you can do with it would actually fit perfectly with AFKMud as it already comes with basic wilderness code. I'm sure it would just be a matter of digging out the rest of the EmpireMUD changes and transplanting them into something else that's based on a supported codebase.

I would tend to agree with Samson. It's usually easier to add features to an existing base than it is to completely clean up and change the fundamental architecture for another project.

Sounds good. Too bad my knowledge on merging is extremely limited.

…The last thing I want to do is end up like Mercthevia.

You won't end up like Medievia unless you claim to be original and try to make money off of it. People tend to be fine with sharing and merging as long as you don't do anything against the license (like commercial use) or trying to pass off other people's work as your own.

As for doing the code work, well, yes, it would involve some coding yourself, or convincing somebody else to do it for you. See above for why both of those are not easy tasks. :smile:

I never said it was.


I know, got that.


Good for you.


I agree, that's a good chunk of my entire point and one of the main blurbs in my post.


Wait for it…


There we go. Sure doesn't seem like you appreciate any help. Where did I say I had a problem? You say you are looking for solutions, and that's all I was trying to do was actually -help- you. There was nothing but realistic and constructive advice in my post, and nothing negative. You, sir, are the one spouting negative crap here.


The best "something that will aid" your research is the wisdom and advice of people who have been there starting a game and who have been doing that for some time. Speaking for myself, I have been involved in the administration side of MUDing for the better part of 8 years now, so I know a little something about what it takes. I've made plenty of mistakes, but I've learned from them, as has anyone that's been doing this for any period of time. I beg you, point out to me where I said you should just pack up and go, because I never said that, nor did I ever imply that. I outlined to you very clearly some of the options you had in front of you. None of them was pack up and quit.


You sure weren't all ears the last time I had something polite to say, so I see no reason why you should be deserving of any future advice or help.


And see, here comes the completely unrelated and personal attack. You obviously have -zero- idea what happened in this situation, and for you to try to bring this up as ammunition shows a severe lack of judgement, wit, or maturity. I'm sure you'll make a fantastic administrator with that attitude and chip you are carrying around on your shoulder.


Let me point something out to you here since you seem incapable of figuring this out on your own… I've pointed out before my game is based heavily in Chrono Trigger along with other games, and to this moment there are no other Chrono Trigger based MUDs out there. You are talking about going in that direction, as a result, once you opened, your MUD would actually be my direct competition. Despite this, since you first starting posting about that, I've posted nothing but support and advice. That last post I used the entirety of one of my breaks at work to type that. There are other things I could have been doing with my time in between working, but I chose to spend it typing a very constructive reply that was only in the utmost of faith. I have nothing to gain from you succeeding in your project, and it benefits me in absolutely no way. If anything, I stand to suffer a loss if your game was successful. So rather than certain DBZ MUD owners that are known to flame, attack, sabotage, spam, or otherwise try to harm other games they see as competition, I did what I could to try to -help- you. Samson having issue with my stance on how Admins should conduct themselves on a site when they are acting as an official representation of that site has absolutely nothing to do with this, or how I try to be as positive of an influence on the MUDing community as I can be. Despite him clearly taking issue with me, that hasn't kept me from linking Mud Bytes from my MUD's website, it hasn't stopped me from trying to be a positive and contributing member of the site and the forum, and it hasn't stopped me from having Mud Bytes be the -only- place that I've released any snippets. In fact, one of my MUD's former coders was among the top posters for MONTHS, and is still one of the top uploaders to the ROM code part of the site with the top two downloads in that section being his snippets. Some of these snippets include very theme-specific code, such as a 3x3 ASCII Mapper, a Turn Based Combat engine, and Materia among other things. Numerous of his snippets are code that came directly from my MUD, and anytime he asked if it were ok to release any of our code as snippets, I encouraged him. If anything, his contributions to this site has also made it easier for MUDs that could be our "competition" to get started, and in fact, the most popular MUD in our theme (Ivalice) is using his materia snippet. When I was being needlessly flamed by another member of this site on another forum over a codebase he had submitted to Mud Magic containing rip offs of some of my areas and the codebase had been removed and he didn't have a copy of it, we cleared up our differences and I actually went out of my way to send him his codebase (which again is Final Fantasy themed and could be my competition). He has actually gone on to download and comment on some of the snippets I mentioned previously. If anything, I habitually help my competition rather than what most people would do. Tell me I'm somehow doing all of that for some sort of personal gain and keep a straight face.


I never said you did. Point out to me where I implied that.


By being attacked? I think most people would rather not have your brand of acknowledgement and reward.


I'm not, but you're doing a grand job of portraying yourself that way at this point. Good job there chief.


Such a martyr attitude really isn't necessary here. You're making yourself look childish.


With that attitude, 100% completely agree with you. If you continue to attack people who are only trying to help you, continue to jump to conclusions, and try to bring up squabbles you know nothing about and had no part of, you're not going to get very far. You have no reason to be defensive here, you weren't accused of anything, and you just came way out of left field on this and attacked me for absolutely no reason.

At the risk of being attacked again for offering advice… you really need to chill out, think before you post, and maybe learn a little bit about who you attack before you do. If you knew anything about me at all, you would know I'm one of the last people who will just needlessly attack someone. In fact over at TMC, I spent days locked into a bit of a battle with two other posters who are habitual flamers trying to do something toward cooling that behavior down. Let's not also mention in the very subject of your post you asked for opinions. If you can't handle what people have to say, especially when it was only intended as helpful advice, then maybe you shouldn't be asking for it. However, if you are going to be running a MUD, that's something you seriously need to work on because half your time on a game full of players will be spent listening to how this skill sucks, or how this needs to be changed, or how this class is overpowered, or how this system would be better like this, and so on and so on. You will be directly challenged on a regular basis on what you feel is best for your game, and unless you are a tyrant who will just get rid of anyone who disagrees with you, you can't afford to be so defensive.

I'm a reasonable guy, and I understand maybe you've had to be defensive like that in the past and maybe you've been attacked unnecessarily in the past, but generally speaking Mud Bytes isn't a place you have to worry about that happening. Now as I said, I'm a reasonable guy, so if you'll take the time to re-read what I posted before, take your time and actually understand what it was I was trying to communicate to you rather than jumping to conclusions, and be a man and apologize for unnecessarily attacking me, I'll let this go and everything will be cool. If after that you don't want to hear what I have to say or don't want me giving you what is honestly sound and constructive advice, then sure, that's no skin off of my back, but I'll be willing to forget this happened. I find the community to be a bit more important than petty squabbles, and there's very few individuals I hold any sort of grudge against, and there's no reason for you to be one of them. Despite whatever has been said between Samson and I, I respect him for his contribution to the community, the time and labor sacrifice it takes to be apart of running a site like this, and I have no problem with him. I even went so far as to defend him on TMC very recently when I felt like he was basically being lynched and ganged up on by many of the posters there over pretty much nothing. I surely don't agree with everything he says or everything he believes, and we have clearly differing opinions on how we feel Admins should go about their business on a site like this, but as far as I know, there's no ill will or hard feelings between us anymore. I'm not that kind of person.

So what will it be?

I think you guys are dragging this off topic. Magus, Hades, if the two of you have issues you need to work out with each other, at least try and do so via PMs. There's no purpose served in allowing this to turn into a flamewar for no reason. If this gets out of hand we'll put a stop to it.

Understood. All I'm after is to get to the apology I'm owed after being flamed for no reason. I have no desire to continue this otherwise.

Are you kidding me? No one said you were posting here to find a coder. That you inferred that someone did shows a lack of comprehension on your part, not on Hades's end. Hades definitely didn't blast you or flame you. He offered you advice and you got all bent out of shape from it. He didn't offer you CRAP, he gave you advice and you are the one whom responded with crap. No one told you to pack up and go. He suggested it may be easier for you to work on a mud till you know what you are doing before looking to start your mud. Frankly, that's DAMN good advice, and not at all an insult or flame. He only ever had something polite to say, the one that started being rude was you. Samson resigned because of people like Hades? That is hilarious because personally I consider Hades to be somewhat of a bliss ninny, he's overly polite and often bits his own tongue so as to not offend other people. Offensive people are more like Cratylus, Synorel, or myself, all of which will flat out flame you if you piss us off, something Hades did not do and does not do. As far as Hades's crap not working on you, of course it won't because from what I just read you appear to be so full of shit that no one could possibly put anymore crap on you. No one tried to make you out to be a selfish bastard you dimwit. Unfortunately you did make yourself out to be a selfish bastard by becoming a 'poor-me' type person by imagining insults where there were none and then insulting someone who didn't insult you in the first place. Apologizing for continuing your project? Hah, yes we're all going to cry because you're continuing to work on your mud. Oh, wait no we aren't in fact most of us don't give a shit what you do with your mud, on the other hand we do care that you were just an obnoxious prick to someone who didn't deserve any of your shit. No one asked you to quit working on your own mud, so to cap up this post, quit playing a god damned victim.

Enough. This tangent ends now or this thread gets locked. One more response from anyone that's not about EmpireMUD or figuring out how to port its features elsewhere will lock this thread. Leave the guy alone, deal with this in private or not at all.

Can't you just delete the posts in question rather than locking the thread? This was starting to get interesting before the flame war ensued..

That tends to go against the general philosophy of moderation here. The thought is that it is better to leave things up as negative examples, so that it is clear in the future what prompted moderator action. FWIW I think Samson did the right thing on both accounts.

In an attempt to return to the topic, if one were to want to "Empire-ify" a SMAUG base, the first step would be to identify the features that should be ported over more precisely. Then, chances are that many could be found as snippets, or near-snippets (i.e. take an existing snippet and modify it a bit). That would let you figure out what exactly would need to be done to accomplish whatever you wanted to do with EmpireMUD's features: it is probably the case that not all of its features are needed, so a total port would not be necessary.

…Yeah, I do owe you an apology. Sorry I overreacted there.
Obviously, I've been to forums where hateful words are flung around like bullets in an old-western showdown.
Perhaps I shouldn't have been so quick to judge you.

After asking around on other muds, I've heard a lot of different things from implementors, including taking a lengthy community college course on C. Thank you for the sound advice, Kane. I've got a lot of work to do.

Samson, I have located this huge monolithic hexadecimal code in reguard to the pfile, but I have no idea how to convert it to text and make it something tangible. Any help you may have here would be appreciated.

The mud is also up and running, I'm trying to make it so that players don't have to die permanently right now, similar to Zenn's Empiremud.
Come check me out:

zeno.biyg.org:2101

Thank you. It's all water under the bridge :)

When you do get something up and running and modified, I would still be interested in checking it out.