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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:18:16 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Tue 21 Jul, Travis Casey wrote:
Also a reply to Matthew R. Sheahan, who pointed out the same thing.
> On 21 July 1998, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > Violence does not equate physical violence. It is the exertion of
> > power over somebody else.
> Normally I don't get involved in this kind of debate, but I have to
> say that this definition of violence is *far* too broad.
> I don't think that most reasonable person would classify these as
> violent acts.
I am sorry. I was careless when I wrote that. However I hope everybody
understood that I never meant the 'definition' to be that broad.
> I'd propose this definition:
> Any action which stands a serious risk of harming someone else is
> violence.
> Note that harm does not have to be physical -- one can harm someone
> psychologically, socially, economically, or possibly in other ways.
Which really was the point I was trying to make. I just need to learn
to think before I write.
> Note further that no value judgement is implied here: some acts of
> violence may, in fact, be good. (For example, if I run headlong into
> someone at full force, I stand a serious risk of harming them.
> However, if I do this in an attempt to keep that person from being run
> over by a bus, most people would count that as good.)
> It should also be noted that violence may be unintentional -- the
> person performing the violence may not realize or understand that
> there is a potential for harm.
I am having some trouble with this. For me there is a certain intention
to harm somebody else before you can call it violence. But that may be
my personal opinion.
[further explanations snipped]
> With that said, I think the biggest disagreement among mudders is not
> about whether violence is bad, but about what is a violent act. Some
> believe that if you are acting in character, and only doing things to
> someone else's character, there should be no serious potential for
> harm -- that everyone in the mud should realize/believe that it's just
> a game, and the characters are just playing pieces.
> For another contingent, their characters are more than playing pieces
> -- they are representatives of themselves in a virtual world. From
> that point of view, an attempt to harm a character is an attempt to
> harm the person playing that character, and is therefore violence.
This is indeed a key difference. The difference is in the intention, not
as much in the actual actions that are performed.
> Most of us, I think, are somewhere in the middle, believing that some
> actions are OK because "they just affect the characters" while others
> are not OK or are less OK because they carry the potential of harming
> the players. However, there is still disagreement over "where the
> line should be drawn."
This actually is much the same debate as what is sexual harassment. Not
that I plan to get into -that- discussion -here-.
[lots snipped]
Never having played doom, nor likely to ever do, I would agree that in
such games there is no violence against another player. But that is be-
cause it is the whole point of the game to attack other characters. It
is also why I do not expect to enjoy such games. However in muds there
is a much more blurred line between violence against players and char-
acters. I belief that this issue must be solved one way or the other or
the games can not mature. How this can be done is not entirely clear,
although I believe that Dr.Cat is on the right track with the idea that
undesired behaviour must be resolved through taking away attention ra-
ther than rewarding such behaviour. There still remain a lot of issues
that must be solved of course.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00288" HREF="msg00288.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Travis Casey <efindel#polaris,net></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00143" HREF="msg00143.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Fri 10 Jul 1998, 05:46 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00284" HREF="msg00284.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 21:19 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00286" HREF="msg00286.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Matthew R. Sheahan <a href="mailto:chaos#crystal,palace.net">chaos#crystal,palace.net</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 21:52 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00288" HREF="msg00288.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Tue 21 Jul 1998, 22:19 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00320" HREF="msg00320.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 23 Jul 1998, 20:23 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00466" HREF="msg00466.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 03 Aug 1998, 20:55 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00484" HREF="msg00484.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 07:38 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00486" HREF="msg00486.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Robert Woods <a href="mailto:rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu">rwoods#nebula,honors.unr.edu</a>, Wed 05 Aug 1998, 08:49 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00554" HREF="msg00554.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Sat 08 Aug 1998, 05:22 GMT
</LI>
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