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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Matt Chatterley <<A HREF="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:18:18 -0000 (GMT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
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On 09-Jul-98 Jon A. Lambert wrote:
> On 2 Jul 98, Travis S. Casey wrote:
>>
> [snip conversation about number hiding]]
>>
>> In doing that, hiding numbers isn't the only thing that I'd need to do.
>> To take a typical, D&D-derived game system and hide the numbers wouldn't
>> help in the suspension of disbelief; indeed, it would quite likely hurt
>> it, or make the game nearly impossible to play. I'd need to try to set
>> things up so that the game works as much as possible like the way you'd
>> expect a real world to work -- so that you don't *need* the numbers as
>> much as you do in a D&D-style world.
>>
>
> Exactly. Many P&P systems require players to have numbers readily
> available for resolving actions. Automating the process of action
> resolution make many of these numbers meaningless and unnecessary.
> Typically the only numbers that require display are those involving
> vital statistics and those involved with players considering there
> chances at performing an activity. And these numbers can be
> displayed in any number of ways; literally, textual description or
> graphically.
Right. I also feel that replacing the numbers with more descriptive information
is conducive to a different approach to gaming (more below). It also (to my
mind) makes it 'friendlier' to those who are unaccustomed with this type of
game, and requires less instruction - "My strength is 18? What does that
/mean/?" versus "Okay, so I'm very strong.." (of course, the logical
continuation is similar, since it is ".. compared to what?").
> Rolemaster, for instance, has a 6 or more page character sheet which
> is largely a collection of numbers. In addition, there are dozens of
> tables which need to be referenced in order to derive one's chances
> at success at a given action. In short, all these numbers make the
> game less playable from a ftf standpoint and their exposure would
> be very counterproductive to online play. Intimate knowledge of
> these numbers would of course be very helpful to GoPers. However, I
> think only "Rainman" would be able to process this quantity of
> information fast enough to gain significant advantage. Long term
> experience may lead players to instinctively guess at odds. As
> one who has attempted to min/max creation and play on occasion for
> grins and giggles, I find that the many situational and exception
> variables to numerous to get a firm handle on.
Right again. We're also in a situation whereby we can make the 'behind the
scenes' calculations a lot more sophisticated, since people do not need to be
able to cope with them any more. Displaying a lot of information which is
needed can make playing tedious. I find numerical data more tedious personally;
others may disagree (do you?).
> [snip]
>> That depends on what your game is. For me, nothing would be up -- the
>> GoPers who "broke" the system would know the internal rules and numbers,
>> but, since I'm trying to make an accurate simulation, this won't help them
>> much, if at all, and I don't really care if it does help them (as long as
>> it doesn't give them a huge advantage). The real point of hiding the
>> numbers was to help those who want to roleplay to do so, by eliminating
>> the distraction of numbers. Short of forcing all the roleplayers to
>> memorize the rules and numbers, the people who have "broken" the system
>> can't prevent it from doing that... and thus, from my point of view, they
>> haven't "broken" the system at all.
>
> Aye. Role-players, per my definition, do not often spend a great
> deal of time crunching numbers in order to gain mechanical advantage.
> More often they are interested in making decisions based on "fuzzy",
> but helpful, feedback from their gamemaster.
As I mentioned at the top, its basically the 'Roll player' versus 'Role player'
response. A PC mage (new to the whole adventuring thing), encounters a small,
yet mean, and armed Goblin. The 'Roll player' thinks 'Well, my strength is 10,
I have 8 hitpoints, and I can cast one magic missile, which does 1d6+2. I can
kill him easily - hed have to win the initiative three times in a row to get
me, and thats only 0.001% likely...' and so forth. The 'Role player' thinks, 'A
Goblin! Scary! Retreat! Weedle out of combat!', and so forth (obviously,
depending upon the character, but, the point is made).
[Snip rest]
- --
-Matt Chatterley
<A HREF="http://user.itl.net/~neddy/">http://user.itl.net/~neddy/</A>
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.." -John Lennon (Imagine)
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<li><strong><A NAME="00194" HREF="msg00194.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Adam Wiggins <adam#angel,com></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="00103" HREF="msg00103.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Jon A. Lambert" <jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00038" HREF="msg00038.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Thu 02 Jul 1998, 20:41 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00055" HREF="msg00055.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
Vadim Tkachenko <a href="mailto:vt#freehold,crocodile.org">vt#freehold,crocodile.org</a>, Tue 07 Jul 1998, 02:43 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00165" HREF="msg00165.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statistise your MUD?</A></strong>,
Travis Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#polaris,net">efindel#polaris,net</a>, Sat 11 Jul 1998, 17:38 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00103" HREF="msg00103.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Thu 09 Jul 1998, 05:45 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00181" HREF="msg00181.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Sun 12 Jul 1998, 22:20 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00194" HREF="msg00194.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 20:14 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00197" HREF="msg00197.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 21:46 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00198" HREF="msg00198.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 13 Jul 1998, 23:16 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00207" HREF="msg00207.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis</A></strong>,
Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Tue 14 Jul 1998, 19:12 GMT
</LI>
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