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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:21:45 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
On Fri 26 Jun, Koster, Raph wrote:
> > From: Maddy [SMTP:maddy#fysh,org]
> > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > >True that you can not (entirely) force people to play nice by
> > >making it impossible to be anything else. However providing
> > >mechanisms for other players to deal with the social misfits 'on
> > >their own terms' plays right into their hands. You made the game
> > >which was intented a nice roleplay environment into something that
> > >fits the killers. Even players who don't want to fight others are
> > >forced to, because that is the only way there is for them to protect
> > >themselves. So in a sense the killers have won.
> Very nice analysis. Of course, the alternative is for the game to play
> the cop, which is actually rather hard to pull off.
*blush* thank you.
> > Why do these mechanisms have to require the players to even lift a
> > sword?
> Swords (in-game real ones or metaphorical ones like character deletion,
> banning, stat loss, etc etc) tend to be the only thing killers will
> listen to.
Which is a very sad fact if you think about it.
> Either the game wields it in code, the admins wield it, or
> players wield it. And Mike is quite right that if the players wield it,
> it will be other killers mostly who take up the challenge.
Well, actually it was me who wrote it, but that's ok ;)
> > A truely well written roleplaying game, will provide characters with
> > the facilities to create jobs that are needed. Cities could hire
> > characters as watchmen, to catch and prevent crime. Travellers could
> > hire bodyguards,
> > Lords could build armies to conquer the evil that exists beyond the
> > city walls, thus providing more land for farming and housing.
> Very few players want to be watchmen, or bodyguards. Even if these
> facilities exist, players will tend not to make use of them. Even if
> they are made use of, the result may not be what you intend. Currently
> on UO, every player has vigilante freedo to whack a criminal in town.
> The result: vigilante ambush parties at key buildings leaving many
> corpses around, causing spam, and destroying the sense of fictional
> immersion.
I guess it is slightly better than the thing I read in a player's diary
of his early experiences. (I paraphrase) Ultima is ruled by an atmosphere
of fear. People are afraid to stop and talk, for fear of being attacked.
I suppose the new system is a step in the right direction. I could only
wish that it weren't necessary to create vigilante players.
> > You basically end up with an economy with not only allows the trade of
> > items, but the trade of services. You may even find that some/most of
> > the killers will prefer to be bodyguards, as from the original article it
> > looked (IMHO) like they only became killers because the alternative of
> > being a tailor was boring.
> Some--few, however. Many are in it for the thrill of danger. Being a
> cop/bodyguard is mostly tedious, fraught with danger but not excitement
> on an ongoing basis (risky but not FUN), and it's underpaid--meaning,
> less rewarding than adventuring and ignoring the problem. In the
> player-run cities of UO, we've recapitulated many of the classic
> problems: player-run cities having problems with absent guards, guards
> who turn out to be in the pocket of the gangs, guards who quit, guards
> who would rather go on vigilate sprees of their own...
> Basically, I was all for the vision you described, Maddy, until I
> actually made a game that supports it. Then I found it was mosly a
> mirage. :(
This is one of the saddest facts I have read about the possibility (and
future) of true roleplaying games. I think I am going to cry a bit.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
</PRE>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="01214" HREF="msg01214.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01261" HREF="msg01261.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 02:25 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01213" HREF="msg01213.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 10:31 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01214" HREF="msg01214.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 14:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01218" HREF="msg01218.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 18:39 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01219" HREF="msg01219.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 18:42 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01220" HREF="msg01220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 19:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01223" HREF="msg01223.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 21:31 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01228" HREF="msg01228.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Sat 27 Jun 1998, 01:10 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01234" HREF="msg01234.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Sat 27 Jun 1998, 17:29 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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